08-04-2003 14:55									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Guys, it's not expelling someone who has a different opinion. It's expelling someone who preaches absolute hatred of his neighbors and the overthrow of the local democratically elected government. What the Hell is free speech for then?! You have the RIGHT to preach absolute hatred of your neighbors and campaign for the overthrow of the government. That's what free speech is about, man!

sweetass, let's all go join our local KKK

	08-04-2003 15:33									#32
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm sure the fine line between Freedom of Speech and national security has been discussed here before. The Man is promoting racial hatred and inciting not just voilence, but mass murder. This individual should not be allowed to stay here, or any other Western country against which he preaches hatred.

	09-04-2003 06:22									#33
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: He does not have the right to incite violence and he certainly does not have the right to his aquired citizenship when he preaches the overthrow of the country that gave him it

I guess we think of free speech as different in the US. He is only inciting general violence and not specific violence, so I have no problem with it. Abortion protestors who say we should kill all abortion doctors aren't thrown in jail in the US for inciting violence when a doctor is actually killed. Nor should they be.

quote: let's all go join our local KKK

As you well know the KKK has free speech rights and are allowed to march and congregate.

	09-04-2003 06:47									#34
	Got spare money?

Wow. A muslim, a British citizen of foreign birth and disabled. That certainly allows some of the more craven posters here to get their prejudices aired out in the open.

Pity he isn't gay too, you'd have a full house.

For the record- he allegedly lost his forearms when fighting against the Soviets and the Soviet backed regime in Afghanistan. Presumably, he was one of the good guys then.

Free speech means exactly that- or it means nothing at all.

I should point out that I despise and loathe his public pronouncements, detest his abuse of the freedom of speech, and consider his use of Great Britain as a refuge for his criticism of regimes he doesn't agree with, contemptible.

	09-04-2003 08:30									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yep, this is entirely about free speech, folks. Freedom means the freedom to say things we disagree with.

It's amusing that a person from the BNP can reach a position of legal authority in the UK, while this guy has his citizenship revoked and is deported.

	09-04-2003 12:19									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No one is saying he hasn't got a right to free speach. He has not been prosecuted unde any law for his speaches.

I do really get fed up with americans deciding they are the sole arbiters of what constitutes free speach.

What may happen though is that he may lose his aquired citizenship due to conduct that is clearly predjudicial to the country. This includes his pronouncements but it will also include his links with terrorist organisations. He will be allowes to appeal any decision to remove his citizenship. At that point he can then be deported. However there wil be an awful lot of appeals and I doubt it would happen.

	09-04-2003 17:00									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: I should point out that I despise and loathe his public pronouncements, detest his abuse of the freedom of speech, and consider his use of Great Britain as a refuge for his criticism of regimes he doesn't agree with, contemptible.

Then why bother saying what preceded this comment? Seems like you're criticising people for saying things you agree with...

As for free speech, would Abu Hamza be allowed to cross the Atlantic and start burning the star-spangled banner?

	09-04-2003 17:35									#38
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Then why bother saying what preceded this comment? Seems like you're criticising people for saying things you agree with... As for free speech, would Abu Hamza be allowed to cross the Atlantic and start burning the star-spangled banner?

Yes he would, those Canadians allow anything!

	09-04-2003 17:39									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The cubans would be up for that too

	10-04-2003 03:58									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Then why bother saying what preceded this comment? Seems like you're criticising people for saying things you agree with...

And at what point did I say he should therefore be stripped of his citizenship? Unlike some people (who seem to think its o.k. to incite racial hatred and violence if you're white and in the B.N.P.) I might loathe Mr. Hamza and his political beliefs but until he starts actively conspiring to overthrow the state or using terrorism I still support his right to say what he says however much I might disagree with it.

And what the hell is 'conduct prejudicial to the country'?

Whatever the government of the day decides it is?

I can't believe it's a Labour government in power- it might as well be Thatcher again. I criticise the U.S. for many things in its foreign policy, but as far as freedom of speech goes, it has many more safeguards than the U.K. does.

	10-04-2003 04:44									#41
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: As for free speech, would Abu Hamza be allowed to cross the Atlantic and start burning the star-spangled banner?

Yes. As you are probably aware, flag burning is a Constitutionally protected free speech right.

	10-04-2003 04:50									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: As for free speech, would Abu Hamza be allowed to cross the Atlantic and start burning the star-spangled banner? Yes. As you are probably aware, flag burning is a Constitutionally protected free speech right.

Even though he'd likely be assaulted and beaten.

	10-04-2003 04:51									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

Then he could sue .

	10-04-2003 06:43									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Molly, at least those who 'abuse' Freedom of Speech in our country dont mysteriously go 'missing'. Over there they may be safeguards to protect Freedom of Speech, but there safeguards against it too (hint - The CIA).

Freedom of Speech is great, but you have to think about whether the consequences outwieght this individual right. Had Bin laden said in a public announcement to his 'people' that 'America is evil, and the Twin towers, A symbol of America should perish' on 10/09/2001 (or 09/10/2001 in yank terms?!) I dont think many would find the comment an acceptable use of Free speech.

There needs to be clauses in the Freedom of Speech for people like Hamza, and that's what's we're thankfully trying to do. Also, If Hamza was to litigate for assault by an American Patriot, I'm sure the Jury would be very sympathetic with him.

	10-04-2003 10:08									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: There needs to be clauses in the Freedom of Speech for people like Hamza, and that's what's we're thankfully trying to do.

I totally 100% disagree. There need be no 'clauses' in Freedom of Speech for anyone. You may be able to convince me to not extend Freedom of Speech to direct solicitation of a crime and direct causation of harm (and direct means 'direct'), but you won't get me much further than that.

quote: Also, If Hamza was to litigate for assault by an American Patriot, I'm sure the Jury would be very sympathetic with him.

If they weren't, the judges on appeal most definetly would make sure he recieve justice.

	10-04-2003 10:19									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Rothy Molly, at least those who 'abuse' Freedom of Speech in our country dont mysteriously go 'missing'. Over there they may be safeguards to protect Freedom of Speech, but there safeguards against it too (hint - The CIA). Freedom of Speech is great, but you have to think about whether the consequences outwieght this individual right. Had Bin laden said in a public announcement to his 'people' that 'America is evil, and the Twin towers, A symbol of America should perish' on 10/09/2001 (or 09/10/2001 in yank terms?!) I dont think many would find the comment an acceptable use of Free speech. There needs to be clauses in the Freedom of Speech for people like Hamza, and that's what's we're thankfully trying to do. Also, If Hamza was to litigate for assault by an American Patriot, I'm sure the Jury would be very sympathetic with him.

I'm a little unsure which people you think the C.I.A. have 'disappeared' in the United States. As far as I know, critics of American foreign policy and domestic affairs such as Noam Chomsky are still very much alive.

Which 'consequences' of the freedom of speech are you scared of? On those vague grounds the U.K. government could lock up the B.N.P. and throw away the key- I'm quite sure that more Afro-Caribbean and British Asian citizens have a greater right to fear the B.N.P. than anyone does a media scare figure and scapegoat such as Hamza. He hasn't so much as shouted 'fire' in a crowded cinema and already he's demonized.

Of course, the B.N.P. seem to be exclusively white, and non-muslim. So that may explain that...

	10-04-2003 12:12									#47
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom And what the hell is 'conduct prejudicial to the country'? Whatever the government of the day decides it is?

Harbouring terrorists, funding terrorists, inciting violence.

That sort of hing.

	10-04-2003 16:46									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: who seem to think its o.k. to incite racial hatred and violence if you're white and in the B.N.P.

I don't think it's okay to incite racial hatred whoever it is. You have every right to say whatever you like, but when that freedom infringes on other peoples' freedoms (as Abu Hamza quite clearly does) then there is a line that should not be crossed.

Incitement to racial hatred and violence is a crime and should be treated as such.

Interesting that no-one has replied to my flag-burning comment yet. I am also certain that had he been a US resident Hamza would have been locked up without charge now.

	11-04-2003 03:24									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Harbouring terrorists, funding terrorists, inciting violence. That sort of hing.

Or being Irish, like the Birmingham Six and some of the Guildford Four. Two well-known travesties of British justice where evidence was purposely withheld from the defence, forensic evidence of extremely dubious value used as 'conclusive' proof and a media smear campaign used in the conviction and imprisonment of innocent people.

If he has harboured terrorists and funded terrorists why hasn't he been arrested for the same? I wonder if a lack of evidence played a part....

Which specific acts of violence against which race of people or group of people are you citing, end is forever?

Whose freedom in Great Britain is being infringed? And how? If anyone calling for the destruction of America had used Iraq, instead, say, or North Korea, or Iran, would that be all right?

	11-04-2003 03:28									#50
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: when that freedom infringes on other peoples' freedoms (as Abu Hamza quite clearly does) then there is a line that should not be crossed.

How has he infringed on peoples' freedoms?

quote: Incitement to racial hatred and violence is a crime and should be treated as such.

If it IS a crime, then why isn't he in a courtroom?

Like molly says, it is probably because he hasn't committed a crime. He is just saying things that the government doesn't like.

	11-04-2003 12:48									#51
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Or being Irish, like the Birmingham Six and some of the Guildford Four. Two well-known travesties of British justice where evidence was purposely withheld from the defence, forensic evidence of extremely dubious value used as 'conclusive' proof and a media smear campaign used in the conviction and imprisonment of innocent people. If he has harboured terrorists and funded terrorists why hasn't he been arrested for the same? I wonder if a lack of evidence played a part.... Which specific acts of violence against which race of people or group of people are you citing, end is forever? Whose freedom in Great Britain is being infringed? And how? If anyone calling for the destruction of America had used Iraq, instead, say, or North Korea, or Iran, would that be all right?

There won't be enough evidence for a criminal conviction, there would be enough to deport him though.

They probably won't get to deport him though as he will be t risk of instant death in an arab country

	11-04-2003 14:19									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The point here seems to be to clamp down on people who seek refuge in the UK, either asylum or citizenship, and then, once they have that sanctuary, incite violence in the UK or in other countries and essentially hide behind UK citizenship to stir up trouble.

Essentially it is about whether someone is allowed to retain a UK citizenship they might not have been granted if it had been known how they would behave. If it isn't extended any further I would support what is being done in this case as Hamza is a disgraceful advert for Islam in the UK and should not be tolerated. I would not like to see it used widely and the current wording of the legislation does make that unlikely.

He allegedly has Egyptian citizenship so that is where he is likely to be sent, probably not an instant death sentence unless they then hand him over to the Yemenis.

	11-04-2003 14:51									#53
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Or being Irish, like the Birmingham Six and some of the Guildford Four. Two well-known travesties of British justice where evidence was purposely withheld from the defence, forensic evidence of extremely dubious value used as 'conclusive' proof and a media smear campaign used in the conviction and imprisonment of innocent people.

Hmmm the british "justice" has a "past" I see....

	11-04-2003 14:58									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Which were appalling and hopefully we have learnt fromt that.

The confession evidence was the problemm IIRC.
The maguire 7 were convicted on made up forensic evidence

The problem was innocent people had just been blown up, and that puts pressure on the police. The laws as thay are now would prevent the police from obtaining the confessions they did back then.

	11-04-2003 15:01									#55
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The record of the UK justice system hasn't been good so we have had to go through the painful process of facing up to that and changing things so it doesn't happen again.

An experience a few other countries have yet to go through (but they will eventually).

	11-04-2003 15:01									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Apparently you haven't learned. Your antiterrorist law is rather appaling today.

I can see you have a serious terrorist problem though. But it does infringe shockingly into personal freedoms.

	11-04-2003 15:05									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

About the Greek student you arrested with laughable evidence and witheld for no reason at all, it was a failure of understanding how are things in Greece.
If you were to bust anyone who'd say Americans are terrorists you'd have your prisons full (if they arent already).

The problem is your law that gave your system the ability to witheld someone based on what he says.


As said I can understand you have fears of terrorism. But there is a fine line to be made.

	11-04-2003 15:08									#58
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Having said that, the transparency and efficiency of the UK justice system is to be envied. However some of your laws arent.

If you could have our laws and we could have your efficiency it would be a great combination.

	11-04-2003 15:12									#59
	Tired of ads?

We've done this before bu here goes.

The Greek bloke will have a trial, if it is proved he helped provide support to terrorism he will go to jail if not good luck to him.

There are problems with the new laws infact all our criminal laws are giving more powers to the police to detain longer without charge or application to a magistrate.

However the courst on the whole are preppared to overturn the more unjust laws, which is one the good results of the implementation of the human rights act. Of cousre we have had Habeus Corpus for years which is also a good safeguard.

And our prisons are full, they have far too many drug addicts who wouldn't committ crime if they wern't addicited.

	11-04-2003 15:14									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The "case" of the Greek student is already dropped. His arrest is the shame of your system.