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Frogman
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quote:
from Obiwan
Depends on how you define 'serious' doctrine. The matters you have cited to me seem more concerns of tradition than those of doctrine. |
I'm not going to quibble about whats serious or not serious doctrine. The variances among the traditional churches is insignificant compared to the variations among the laity. Religion ends up being a personal thing as much as it is a communal thing.
People end up making their own personal image of God, if they choose to believe in one. The worth of Neale's book can only be judged by the person reading it. It doesn't matter whether or not God was talking to Neale if the reader feels God is talking to them.
For people who are looking for a different way to picture God or even to picture God at all, its a good read. I wouldn't start a church over it, but if it draws people to a closer relationship with God, if it gets people looking for God's presence in the world and in their lives, if it gets people to love rather than hate, then Neale has done a good service with the books.
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Frogman
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quote:
Originally posted by curtsibling
So if you are not a glassy-eyed literal christian and blind follower, you are dim-witted?
What ever way you want it, rockstar.
I know who the fool is... |
I think you are too quick on the draw my friend. Actually, glassy eyed literalists won't like the books either. READ what I said and you'll see that I meant intellegent people who have an interest in learning about God would find the books interesting.
quote:
from obiwan
If he'd just said, "this is my interpretation," by all means go ahead. If it helps some people then he has accomplished something.
It just causes problems when he says, "God spoke to me." It's not necessary for him to say this for the points that he is making.
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I believe he thinks his method of answering the questions he posed were from God. New agers think they talk to God all the time. I suppose it could have been a ruse to sell more books but it did set up an interesting format for the books and some of the words he put in God's mouth were interesting. You have to be open minded to read this, if you go in looking to fight it, there will be plenty to pick on. I didn't agree with all or even most of it, but some of the concepts altered my views on the universe, not all books can do that.
Last edited by Frogman on 10-04-2003 at 01:46
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Frogman
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Well, which passages cause problems? Where does the Christian God fall short? |
When Joshua takes Jericho, its pretty brutal. They left out a lot of parts in that little song after "the walls come a tumblin down". He doesn't seem all that merciful to me.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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MRT 144:
Sorry to disappoint, but Christians say the two are the same.
quote:
They left out a lot of parts in that little song after "the walls come a tumblin down". He doesn't seem all that merciful to me.
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Frogman:
Joshua 6:2
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.
Joshua 6:16-17
The seventh time around, when the priests sounded the trumpet blast, Joshua commanded the people,
"Shout! For the LORD has given you the city! The city and all that is in it are to be devoted [1] to the LORD . Only Rahab the prostitute [2] and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent.
Joshua 6:21
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
Why the woman?
As we see from Joshua 2:8-12
Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof and said to them, "I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea [2] for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. [3] When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below. Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you.
The bolded section is a confession- that the God of the Israel is the God over the whole earth, herself and her family included. By helping the spies, she showed that she trusted in God to save and spare her family.
If all of Jericho followed her example, God would spare the city, and they would allow the Israelites to take control.
By demonstrating his power in the crossing of the Dead Sea, the other nations were given a choice by God, to repent or face destruction.
This is one example of God's mercy.
What about the unrepentant people in the city?
They fall under the covenant given by God to Moses:
Joshua 1:2-3
"Moses my servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give to them-to the Israelites. I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses."
Deuteronomy 9:4
After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.
What kinds of wickedness? The same in Canaan as in Egypt:
Deuteronomy 29:17-20
You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold. Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.
When such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself and therefore thinks, "I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way." This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry.
Notice, if Israel follows the examples of the nations around her, she will suffer similar punishment for failing her covenant obligations.
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Frogman
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quote:
originally posted by obiwan
If all of Jericho followed her example, God would spare the city, and they would allow the Israelites to take control.
By demonstrating his power in the crossing of the Dead Sea, the other nations were given a choice by God, to repent or face destruction.
This is one example of God's mercy.
What about the unrepentant people in the city?
They fall under the covenant given by God to Moses:
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Yeah, every man woman and child in the city was a sinner, even the babies. Rahab got her family saved and screwed her friends. Fine prostitute that she was I'm sure her family was quite deserving of being spared.
God didn't spare those who repented. The Gibeonites used straight trickery. Where was God on that one?
Besides, with all the miracles and the books, and the law, the Israelites couldn't go more than one generation without worshiping golden calves or swinging from an Ashtara Pole. Why was Jericho or any other city in Canaan less deserving than Israel?
Somewhere along the way, God must have gotten tired because he just couldn't drive them all out of Canaan like he promised. Like so much of the old testament, God talks a good game then backs down, no wonder the Jews kept leaving him. The old testament God is supposed to be the same as the Christian God, but he's not. While God is always the same, the jews just didn't understand him and they painted him out to be a real jerk.
I like the CWG description of God. I don't care if Neale just made him up. Thats much more the kind of God I expect.
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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it was a joke obiwan
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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It's a good way to start a post MRT 144.
Frogman:
quote:
Besides, with all the miracles and the books, and the law, the Israelites couldn't go more than one generation without worshiping golden calves or swinging from an Ashtara Pole. Why was Jericho or any other city in Canaan less deserving than Israel?
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Man those Israelites suck. They have this cool God who saves them in Egypt, and this is how they respond?
As for more deserving, the better question is why did God make a covenant with Israel in the first place? To understand this, you have to look at Abraham. Abraham trusted God so much that he left his homeland at God's bequest, and almost offered his son as a sacrifice, trusting that God would provide a lamb instead. That seems pretty cool to me.
quote:
Somewhere along the way, God must have gotten tired because he just couldn't drive them all out of Canaan like he promised. Like so much of the old testament, God talks a good game then backs down, no wonder the Jews kept leaving him.
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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Again, is God to blame because the Israelites lacked faith?
quote:
God didn't spare those who repented. The Gibeonites used straight trickery. Where was God on that one?
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Joshua 9:18-21
"But the Israelites did not attack them, because the leaders of the assembly had sworn an oath to them by the LORD , the God of Israel.
The whole assembly grumbled against the leaders, but all the leaders answered, "We have given them our oath by the LORD , the God of Israel, and we cannot touch them now. This is what we will do to them: We will let them live, so that wrath will not fall on us for breaking the oath we swore to them." They continued, "Let them live, but let them be woodcutters and water carriers for the entire community." So the leaders' promise to them was kept."
They were spared because Israel made an oath. In order to kill the Gibeonites, the Israelites would have had to break an oath. Essentially, two wrongs do not make a right. Just because the Gibeonites lied, does not relieve the Israelites from the oath.
Notice, the Israelites in the pact with the prostitute, set terms that if one party lied, the oath would be off and both parties agreed. In this oath, the Israelites made no such exception.
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Frogman
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quote:
from obiwan
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Again, is God to blame because the Israelites lacked faith? |
God didn't say "if you have faith I'll help you drive the unbelievers out" He said, "I will drive them out before you"
Face it, the jewish picture of God is one of a jealous, angry, petty God who has to be satisfied with blood. He frequently changes his mind and can be negotiated with. He is not all knowing and seems to get frustrated all the time.
Hey, I think there is a God. I just don't think its that one.
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08-04-2003 07:23
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