07-04-2003 21:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I find it interesting that the palaces have been cleaned out... There was a little furniture left in the main palace, but everything else was gone. Could it be they don't want to leave any evidence behind...

Looters. Happening all over.

NO! Can't be! More lies!
They wouldn't loot from their beloved leader!

	07-04-2003 21:52									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Plan Austral An unprovoked invasion for the natural resources of a third world country, a scary precedent.

a precedent???

Remember the division of Africa by the colonial powers?
How about Spain's subjugation of the Aztecs and Incas?
How about the US pushing the native americans out of their land?
Englsih in India?
Italy taking over Etheopia?


precedent my ass

	07-04-2003 22:50									#33
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His whole statement is bullshit.

	08-04-2003 01:27									#34
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http://www.markfiore.com/animation/liberation.html

	08-04-2003 01:41									#35
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Silly... Morals are subjective to my own interpretation.

I still don't believe that the ends justify the means, or that the means justify the ends for this very reason.

The US used that as a reason to get the world to help us over throw an evil dictator. Guess what, no one bit, and we are still at war! Thus; we went to war despite having hard evidence, so what kind of justification would hard evidence prove to end the war? Nothing! It would just make a few countries red in the face as the US and UK gloat, and what good is that?

Basically the war began without UN specified causation, so why would it need it now?

	08-04-2003 01:56									#36
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As the Hawks all said that "this war is not about oil", why not prove it by giving all the oil contracts to non-American companies (and not BP either)?

	08-04-2003 08:35									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ming And you don't want to believe that there is a plausible reason... so, your point?

Show me. We have gone through this gadzillions of times, and the pro-war camp has yet to come up with a valid reason for such a preventive attack.

	08-04-2003 08:38									#38
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower a precedent??? Remember the division of Africa by the colonial powers? How about Spain's subjugation of the Aztecs and Incas? How about the US pushing the native americans out of their land? Englsih in India? Italy taking over Etheopia? precedent my ass

What century are you in?

	08-04-2003 10:09									#39
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Saddam sent all his WMD into Syria before the US showed up, haven't you heard?

	08-04-2003 11:17									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What century are you in?

alright, how about China and tibet?
England and Argentina over the Falkland Islands
Iraq invading Kuwait back in 1991


is that better?

	08-04-2003 11:22									#41
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower alright, how about China and tibet? England and Argentina over the Falkland Islands Iraq invading Kuwait back in 1991 is that better?

You forgot Italy taking over Ethiopia and USSR v Afghanistan this time.

	08-04-2003 11:58									#42
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The US is in good company...

1 ME strongman
1 SA junta
2 "commie" dictatorships...

	08-04-2003 12:14									#43
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Time will tell. And I guarantee, that it will not be the Europeans, but American wives, mothers and orphans, who will get to the botton of this war. Why their president sent their husbands, fathers, sons to die in a godforsaken country when the reasons were all made up.

You warmongers are all too lucky that the war is being waged thousands of miles away from your warm home, and that none of your relatives are involved or hurt.

To you its all rhetoric. But as I said. Time will tell, and it wont be a nice story.

...unless they DO find hard evidence that Saddam was planing to attack the USA with WOMD. That is the reason for this war, isnt it?

	08-04-2003 19:12									#44
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Why the quotes around the word commie?

	08-04-2003 23:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why the quotes around the word commie?

I'll let you guess...

	09-04-2003 00:26									#46
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I agree that simply insisting that the US has fabricated evidence is not helpful. What we should look out for is suspicious changes in the line on WMD discoveries, lack of third party confirmation and attempts to play up non-evidence, such as gas masks and 'precursor' chemicals.

To those that insist that Iraq does possess 'WMD', I must ask, why haven't they been used?

And lets not forget that chemical and biological weapons are overrated crud, with very limited military usefulness.

	09-04-2003 02:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman To those that insist that Iraq does possess 'WMD', I must ask, why haven't they been used? And lets not forget that chemical and biological weapons are overrated crud, with very limited military usefulness.

I'm no expert, but does Saddam even have the means of deploying such weapons against the US? He can hardly nuke, gas or plague his own country and if he had the ability to launch missiles from Baghdad to Washington I think he would have launched a couple whether he had nukes to fit on the ends or not.

	09-04-2003 02:42									#48
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quote: I will give the Coolition a few weeks after the end of hostilities to find EVERYTHING they kept saying Iraq had, or finding where it all of a sudden went. After that they get no more grace period.

You hear that, Dubya? GePap's comin' to get you! You better run! Yeah, you! That's right!



Sorry. It had to be said.

	09-04-2003 06:35									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ming It seems like a can't win situation. If they find evidence... the people against the war will claim it was fabricated. Some people won't change their minds either way...

On the other hand, perhaps some people with long memories remember the reasons given for the actions taken in Guatemala, Iran, Zaire and Angola. And the lies they were later shown to be...

1953

Iran – CIA overthrows the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in a military coup, after he threatened to nationalize British oil. The CIA replaces him with a dictator, the Shah of Iran, whose secret police, SAVAK, is as brutal as the Gestapo.

Allegedly because Mossadegh was soft on communism. A funny reason really, given that the conservative nationalist had been criticised by the Communist Tudeh Party of Iran for being too favourable to U.S. oil interests. The self same oil interests who profited from the coup by getting 40% of Iran's oil wealth.

1954

Guatemala — CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.

Again publicly because the liberal democrat Arbenz was soft on communism, and a commie takeover was imminent...Clearly businessmen (who happened to be in the C.I.A., the president's cabinet, and the U.S. ambassadorship at the United Nations) thought the same. Despite any lack of evidence, and without reference to their extensive financial interests in United Fruit.

1975

Angola — Eager to demonstrate American military resolve after its defeat in Vietnam, Henry Kissinger launches a CIA-backed war in Angola. Contrary to Kissinger’s assertions, Angola is a country of little strategic importance and not seriously threatened by communism. The CIA backs the brutal leader of UNITA, Jonas Savimbi. This polarizes Angolan politics and drives his opponents into the arms of Cuba and the Soviet Union for survival. Congress will cut off funds in 1976, but the CIA is able to run the war off the books until 1984, when funding is legalized again. This entirely pointless war kills over 300,000 Angolans. However, Gulf Oil subsidiaries keep the oil flowing, Savimbi keeps the diamonds coming, the South Africans and the C.I.A. help smuggle out endangered species, ivory, and animal skins, in breach of international law, and U.N. sanctions.

Read the words, but watch the actions, and the aftermath.