09-04-2003 20:04									#31
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I'm curious: Were pitchers, on the norm, always useless batters? In my lifetime, there are only a few decent hitters that stick out, while the vast majority probably couldn't get a base hit off a t-ball stand. What about back in the good ol' days of the 40's, 50's and 60's? Or even before

	09-04-2003 20:15									#32
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I've always found it interesting that , with rare exceptions, pitchers hit like crap. If you look at world class fastpitch softball, pitchers are often some of the best hitters, and in fact, many play a position when they are not pitching because they are good fielders and hitters. In softball, there is often a DH but they are as likely to be batting for some other infielder as the pitcher.


I'm a little suprised that there is no one in baseball that is good enough to be a regular position player and pitch as well.

For me, no DH . . . pitchers should learn to hit . . . . and managers SHOULD face the agony of whether to lift their ace when trailing 1-0 in the seventh and with a runner on base

	09-04-2003 20:18									#33
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NO DH... make them have to bat, just like EVERY OTHER player.

	09-04-2003 20:35									#34
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Either you remove the DH or you do the same as in Football: an offense and a defense taking turns on the field.

I'd prefer getting rid of the DH though.

	09-04-2003 21:17									#35
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The DH is for wimps.

NL games are far more interesting to watch. It's just a shame that 75% of the games we get in the UK involve only AL West or AL East teams.

* FrustratedPoet sighs and goes back to watch his recording of the Angels .v. A's game from Sunday.

	09-04-2003 21:20									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture A comparable rule in Football would be to have old Strikers that are slow be allowed offside. Dumb rule.

	09-04-2003 21:36									#37
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DH SUCKS!!! Get rid of it!

And Calc... when Babe Ruth played, first as a pitcher who hit well, then as an outfielder who hit well; there was no DH in the AL.

And without the DH, pitcher who can't hit will be either forced to get better in the batter's box, or risk their ineptitude reflect on their value as a baseball player.

Also without the DH, wasted pieces of crap like Frank Thomas would be out of the league.

	09-04-2003 22:32									#38
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DH. Get rid of it.

I was happy to see the Phillies use a pitcher as a pinch-hitter last night. Haven't seen that in a while. And he moved the base runner, setting up the winning run.

	09-04-2003 22:37									#39
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quote: I've always found it interesting that , with rare exceptions, pitchers hit like crap. If you look at world class fastpitch softball, pitchers are often some of the best hitters, and in fact, many play a position when they are not pitching because they are good fielders and hitters.

The reason is that players that are good at pitching AND hitting are usually turned into full time hitters (so they can get the benefits every day instead of every 5 days). John Olerud, for example (the 1B of Seattle), was a very good pitcher in college, but Toronto made him into a full time hitter, just like any other team would have done.

	10-04-2003 04:08									#40
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I voted no- here's why:

» July 4, 1985: In a marathon game that borders on the surreal, the Mets endure two rain delays and 6:10 of playing time to beat the Braves 16–13 in 19 innings on Fireworks Night in Atlanta. The Mets had taken a 10–8 lead in the top of the 13th inning, only to watch the Braves tie it up. The Mets score again in the 18th, but relief hurler Rick Camp (a .060 hitter who was batting because Atlanta had no more position players available to pinch-hit) ties the score with his first ML home run on a 2-out 2-strike pitch in the bottom of the inning. No pitcher ever homered that late in a game before. Finally the Mets erupt for five runs in the 19th off Camp and Atlanta can respond only with 2. Keith Hernandez hits for the cycle for the Mets, and the game ends at 3:55 A.M. on July 5th, the latest finish in ML history. At 4:01 A.M. the post-game fireworks display begins, causing local residents to think the city is under attack.

IIRC, it was Rick Camp's very first hit after going 0-99.

I actually stayed up until 2:00 AM to watch all of this game. It was incredibly fun to watch.

I also just realized that I've been a Braves fan for over 20 years.

ACK!

	10-04-2003 04:54									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu or you do the same as in Football: an offense and a defense taking turns on the field.

	10-04-2003 05:35									#42
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go braves! NL is real ball, since the DH rule is an affront to all that is good in the game.

if you field, you hit. nobody quits because they're bad hitters; you play it to win, and you play ALL of the game.

it's truly something when you see a pitcher hit a triple and tie up a game.

	10-04-2003 05:38									#43
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No DH is currently very popular...

And shame on you brave fans... shame!

	10-04-2003 05:41									#44
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better a braves fan than a bloody yankees fan.

GO BRAVES!

	10-04-2003 05:42									#45
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Why shame on us poor Braves fans, I went through many years where they lost 100+ games a year, and it looks like they are headed in that direction again.

ACK!

	10-04-2003 05:43									#46
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'tis a shame, isn't it? the first few games, to be blown away like that? man, that stings.

have no fear, though, tuberski. i'm sure our braves will do good this season again.

it's the postseason that i'm saddened by.

	10-04-2003 06:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed 'tis a shame, isn't it? the first few games, to be blown away like that? man, that stings. have no fear, though, tuberski. i'm sure our braves will do good this season again. it's the postseason that i'm saddened by.

Yes, it was. Maddux getting clobbered 2 straight, no runs being scored.

Getting tired of seeing 1's in the Braves runs column.

ACK!

	10-04-2003 06:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed better a braves fan than a bloody yankees fan. GO BRAVES!

THAT I can agree on

	10-04-2003 07:12									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I'm curious: Were pitchers, on the norm, always useless batters? In my lifetime, there are only a few decent hitters that stick out, while the vast majority probably couldn't get a base hit off a t-ball stand. What about back in the good ol' days of the 40's, 50's and 60's? Or even before

Pitchers have always, at least since the start of the 20th century, been selected for their ability to pitch; any batting ability they have is and was incidental. As a group, therefore, they've always batted about as well as any randomly selected group of young men with some athletic ability. That is, not nearly as well as professional hitters whose talent is at the top of the scale. Pitchers' hitting statistics have probably declined somewhat, as the quality of pitching is much better than it was in the early days.

	10-04-2003 07:23									#50
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Walter Johnson of the Washington Nationals has the highest batting average by a pitcher in a season(1925).

He was 42 of 97 for a.433 BA.

He hit 2 homers scored 12 runs and had 20 RBI.

His career average was .235


ACK!

	10-04-2003 09:14									#51
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quote: Pitchers have always, at least since the start of the 20th century, been selected for their ability to pitch

Yes, they are the ultimate Rey Ordonez, ie picked overwhelmingly for the defensive value than their offensive value. Of course, our friend, Rey, isn't that great at defense as once thought either, but that's neither here nor there.

	10-04-2003 09:15									#52
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omar visquel then?

	10-04-2003 10:17									#53
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I say if we're gonna allow pitchers to avoid facing the plate, might as well as make the entire field player have the same kind of options.


Now think about that for second and ask if thats what you might really want.

	10-04-2003 11:05									#54
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It's just part of the game... if you have a real good fielder who can't hit worth a damn come to the plate in a key situation, you have to make a decision... Why should it be different for the pitcher.

	11-04-2003 06:25									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II I say if we're gonna allow pitchers to avoid facing the plate, might as well as make the entire field player have the same kind of options.

Like I said before, the difference between pitchers and other players is that for non-pitchers, there is already a tradeoff being made--offense vs. defense--when deciding who will be on the roster. Rey Ordonez, pathetic as he is, is a better hitter than the average pitcher by at least 50 points; if that weren't true, he'd be gone even if his glove was really as good as its inflated reputation. A full offense-defense "platoon" system would make that tradeoff unnecessary, and would therefore be a much more radical change than the DH.

The DH does affect game strategy in obvious ways, but it does nothing to the selection process for pitchers. Teams have been choosing pitchers with absolutely no regard to how they can hit for at least a hundred years.

	11-04-2003 06:48									#56
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Give the DH a banana to make him about as useful as a pitcher at the plate.

Seriously, tho, hitting is a part of th game. If you can't at least stand at the plate, don't play. If coaches can't deal with having a weak hitter in the lineup, they need to reconsider their career.

	11-04-2003 07:33									#57
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I'm only 25 years old, spent my entire life in a American League market, one that until recently made quite good use of the DH.

I HATE the DH. Can't believe the two leagues play by different rules... it is idiotic, and ruins the credibility of the game.

	11-04-2003 07:46									#58
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There are a lot of things that ruin the credibility of ML Baseball. I'd much rather watch minor league games, they at least play the game as it's supposed to be played.

ACK!

	11-04-2003 07:48									#59
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Minor league rocks!!!!

	11-04-2003 10:59									#60
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quote: Rey Ordonez, pathetic as he is, is a better hitter than the average pitcher by at least 50 points

Perhaps, but look at Ozzie Smith! Early in his career, he had an average that was not much better than most pitchers (in 1979 he batted .211 in 587 at bats). He was chosen only on the basis of his defense. He could have hit .180 and it wouldn't have mattered. He was a player picked for his defense and defense alone.