10-04-2003 00:14									#61
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Well, they did sneak attack us, and then had the gall to suggest that WE started the war (which was a blatant lie). So that was a bit irritating.

But it's all good. I'm rather looking forward to liberating the oppressed citizens of Vox (ruled by cruel despots who seek to destroy all individualism in their populace. Hence "One Voice") and assisting them in rebuilding their land (currently a joke of a third-world nation) toward peace & prosperity.



-Arrian

	10-04-2003 00:19									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Well, they did sneak attack us, and then had the gall to suggest that WE started the war (which was a blatant lie). So that was a bit irritating.

I think you have to give them credit for trying to make us look bad. There were no blatant lies in BetaHound's original post, so its up to the other teams to determine if they're being fair or not (and up to us to explain our side of the story).


Dominae

	10-04-2003 00:22									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I am trying to figure out where the line is being drawn here between trash-talking and pure abusiveness. There is simply no need for comments like "Vox are liars and cheats", etc. etc. Sure, they may have cheated Gathering Storm out of a deal or two, and may have lied one some occasions. I'm not really sure. But this is a game. And remember: all is fair in love and war (in this case, the latter). So direct verbal attacks on a team and therefore their members is simply uncalled for. Telling Vox that they will not be welcome in our ranks is a insult pure and simple. We are all playing this game to have fun, and there is no need to get angry when one team declares war on another. Please tell me that all the previous Gathering Storm comments were made in the spirit of fun-loving trash-talk. If not, I am appalled that my team is taking this so seriously. It is especially unsporstmanlike to verbally abuse your opponent in a game when you have a clear advantage (which I think we do). Is it not enough that Gathering Storm will prevail that we have to make flatter ourselves by putting Vox down publicly? Again, let me know if I'm way off track here, I have a funny way of missing the intent behind some threads/posts. Dominae

I think you're not off the track at all. Being on the side of the agressors/ees (depends on the way you look at it! ) I have a lot of fun. And this is what this game is supposed to be about. I must admit I was laughing a lot when I saw Arrian's Grog post.

@Arrian: We have reports that Grog is not really dead... I just wanted to reach immortality, so he enlisted...!

--Kon--

	10-04-2003 00:26									#64
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I mean, could we have done this in real life at the UN Assembly?? Nooooo.... vent your frustrations here people, that's what the PTWDG is all about!!

	10-04-2003 00:26									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I think you have to give them credit for trying to make us look bad. There were no blatant lies in BetaHound's original post, so its up to the other teams to determine if they're being fair or not (and up to us to explain our side of the story). Dominae

You're overlooking Beta's claims that we moved warriors that didn't move in about a thousand years. In fact, they must be petrified by now.
Either BetaHound was simply lying about us moving our completely stationary scouts... or he sees things.

	10-04-2003 00:36									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I think you have to give them credit for trying to make us look bad. There were no blatant lies in BetaHound's original post, so its up to the other teams to determine if they're being fair or not (and up to us to explain our side of the story). Dominae

Even when Vox attacks us, we keep defending them

	10-04-2003 00:39									#67
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dp

Last edited by Shiber on 10-04-2003 at 01:18

	10-04-2003 00:57									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I am trying to figure out where the line is being drawn here between trash-talking and pure abusiveness. There is simply no need for comments like "Vox are liars and cheats", etc. etc. [*snip*] direct verbal attacks on a team and therefore their members is simply uncalled for. Telling Vox that they will not be welcome in our ranks is a insult pure and simple. We are all playing this game to have fun, and there is no need to get angry when one team declares war on another.

My sentiments exactly, in fact I raised the same point in our forum a while ago. However, I'm not going to complain again - I know our team-mates are all great guys. Furthermore, they certainly don't want me lecturing them on how I think they should behave: its really none of my business.

* FrustratedPoet shuts the hell up.

	10-04-2003 01:10									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber You're overlooking Beta's claims that we moved warriors that didn't move in about a thousand years.

I thought we had moved one of our Warriors.

Still, there's a (not-so subtle) difference between telling your version of the story to the rest of the world and uprising in anger. "Damn Vox, they're all liars and cheats!" is a mostly useless statement. It just tries to make us feel better after being shafted. And therefore the best place for such comments (if they need be said) is in our private forum.

I'll stop lecturing now, I'm not helping the (alleged) problem by starting a debate!


Dominae

	10-04-2003 01:11									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber We've treated Vox (and all other teams, for that matter) with honesty, never broke a treaty and never told a lie, and they spit in our faces.

When did the Glory of War spit in your face? You want to start a war with us too? Has GS sudden built its army and now wants to take on the whole world by itself?

I don't care what anybody says about your strategic superiority I am not going to take this kind of character assasination from any of the other teams.

	10-04-2003 01:17									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Telling Vox that they will not be welcome in our ranks is a insult pure and simple.

Perhaps.
I don't know what Sir Ralph's motives were for making such a declaration, but I know that I will object to allow any members of Vox into GS should they apply because in GS, we believe in honesty in all that we do. We've treated Vox (and all other teams, for that matter) with honesty, never broke a treaty and never told a lie, and they spit in our faces.
As we gather evidence, it seems that they've been lying to us from the start. That's understandable, since we were not good friends back then (certainly not after Vox declared that they believe that all teams should be free to explore anywhere they please, and immediately blocked one of our explorers at an isthmus), but they kept on lying to us even after we've signed treaties, and even while we were practically nurturing them and trying to build a tech partner out of them. Even while we stood up for them, they continued to lie.

The reasoning behind my own decision not to vote for any application of an ex-Voxian to GS are purely professional, I guarantee you. I think Vox have made many mistakes in the field of city placement and management and the use of workers and so on, but the kind of diplomacy that their members appear to be practicing is what I dislike the most. That's why I wouldn't like to see any members of ex-Vox in GS after this whole thing is over (yes, even you Eli ).

	10-04-2003 01:23									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb When did the Glory of War spit in your face? You want to start a war with us too? Has GS sudden built its army and now wants to take on the whole world by itself? I don't care what anybody says about your strategic superiority I am not going to take this kind of character assasination from any of the other teams.

With 'they', I meant Vox was spitting in our face, not your team. Please don't rush to conclusions, I didn't mean to say that your team was dishonest; on the contrary - you've proven to be very fair and honest in our past dealings and I really respect you for that.

	10-04-2003 01:24									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'll stop lecturing now, I'm not helping the (alleged) problem by starting a debate!

Actually, I think that this debate should go on. IMHO this is the real issue here, not the war, because wars will come and go, but this problem will stay until it is dealt with.

	10-04-2003 01:38									#74
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I'd have to say if you make a lie publicly (meaning in this forum), that being called on it is perfectly fair. If you want to keep the lie in game, keep them through 'in game' diplomacy (pm's, emails, whatever), then it's not a big deal... intrigues are going to happen.

	10-04-2003 01:38									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber ...but this problem will stay until it is dealt with.

I thought that's what we are currently doing.

Sorry Shiber, I couldn't help myself.

	10-04-2003 01:44									#76
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No probs Wittlich.

And yes, I gotta agree with you there, I don't see how Vox could help themselves either.

	10-04-2003 01:54									#77
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quote: @Arrian: We have reports that Grog is not really dead... I just wanted to reach immortality, so he enlisted...!

Vicious slander! A true Hero of the Stormian Republic such as Grog would never join the Tyrannical forces of Vox in their aggression against his homeland!

-Arrian

	10-04-2003 02:05									#78
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quote: Vicious slander! A true Hero of the Stormian Republic such as Grog would never join the Tyrannical forces of Vox in their aggression against his homeland!

You are right. Eli the Eliminator, with one hand tied behind his back and a terrible hangover from the night before, defeated and beheaded Grog with no major effort.

	10-04-2003 02:09									#79
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I feel the urge to throw a few words in this discussion. Of course I don't accuse Vox to have cheated while playing (meaning gained advantage in an unfair way). If somebody understood my words in this way, I apologize. "Cheating" was for sure not the right word, "betrayal of trust" describes Vox' behavior better. Yes, Vox broke a treaty based on mutual trust and doing this betrayed us. And as if this wasn't already enough, they had even the nerve to point their fingers at us, still bloody from their sneak attack.

I have absolutely no problem with the declaration of war itself. War is part of this game and a valid way to win it and thus can't be illegal. But trade and diplomacy are also parts of this game. And who would trust a proven backstabber and sign a deal a second time? What concerns the part "not welcome in GS"... a team based game has a lot to do with trust within the team. And who plays with the attitude "the sole purpose of treaties is to be broken", does not deserve my trust and thus, I would vote him out.

	10-04-2003 02:10									#80
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Bah.

Quit complaining and start fighting.

	10-04-2003 02:15									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Quit complaining and start fighting.

...says the man who's team didn't fight but self-destruct.

	10-04-2003 02:16									#82
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Easy for you to say.

	10-04-2003 03:22									#83
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quote: I mean, could we have done this in real life at the UN Assembly?? Nooooo.... vent your frustrations here people, that's what the PTWDG is all about!!

Hmm... yes... if only we had some sort of in-game UN for this sort of debate. If only...

	10-04-2003 03:26									#84
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I thereby present my counter-Sir Ralph's avatar-avatar.

	10-04-2003 03:28									#85
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LOL!

	10-04-2003 03:29									#86
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DeepO

	10-04-2003 03:30									#87
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What he isn't telling is that that was the 4th Immortal...

	10-04-2003 03:31									#88
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ROFL

	10-04-2003 03:32									#89
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It kinda proves the "And then most recently - the final straw - GS observer warriors moving off of their negotiated positions to cut key road links within Vox." to be the lie it is as well.

	10-04-2003 03:34									#90
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Well, what did you expect? Grog is thousands of years old. However, the Voxian immortal in the picture will have the privilege of dying young.