12-04-2003 01:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by rah But it is funny hearing all the people that said we should have given them more time now saying the we should have already found something in the short time we've had.

You're compairing apples and oranges here.

Remember that Hans Blix was given the task of proving Iraq had NO bio-/chem weapons (nor the abilty to produce them), while the pentagon claimed it knew where they are stocked and produced.

	12-04-2003 01:56									#32
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The Us was claiming they had iron-clad proof that these weapons existed and very good ideas were they were. They also claimed that Iraq could disamr itself in just a few days if it wanted.

Blix had a staff of a few hundread and a budget under 100 million dollars. The US has a staff of 200,000 and a budget of 60 billion right now.

Blix will be largely forgotten, but unless the US can find evidence for most of its pre-war claims, he will end up looking well.

	12-04-2003 01:58									#33
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Yes, but thanks to American military presence, the Inspectors weren't having to dodge bullets.

Can you see how that might make the search a bit more difficult?

Mysterious and complex, remember?

-=Vel=-

	12-04-2003 02:04									#34
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I think the drums in question, turned out to be ordinary pesticides.

	12-04-2003 02:30									#35
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Blix will be forgotten. I think he did the best he could though. It is like looking for a needle in a haystack. They are just now finding some of the underground maises that are under man-made lakes.

	12-04-2003 02:47									#36
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I realised that the US government had been very anti-Blix from the start of the inspections but I didn't realise it had turned so many people into rabid Blix-haters, perfectly willing to condemn him with no evidence other than the Bush administration's anger at him not being at hungry for war as they were.
Anyone who condemns Blix as incompetent or a liar or is certain that he will soon be found to be one or the other has clearly suspended all rational judgement and has little or no idea about the inspections process other than the fact that it was standing in the way of a quick start to the war (sort of like a trial standing in the way of quickly sending the accused to prison)
As the more rational people who have posted on this thread have mentioned, Iraq is a big place and it doesn't take huge, easy to find industrial estates to make chemical or biological weapons (if this was true - how come the people/person who was sending anthrax through the mail in the US wasn't found)
Personally I think that there probably think there were/are some WMD being hidden by Saddam but certainly not the huge stockpiles sitting out in the desert, just waiting to be found, that many in the anti-Blix camp would have us believe.

	12-04-2003 02:51									#37
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Why is it like looking for a neele in a haystack? The government promised the world that it had iron-clad proof, that it knew where stuff was being produced and where it was being hidden. Our government now has control of many of those areas. What happened?

If we don't find anything, then you realize that the million or so Iraqis who died under the sanctions are on our heads alone. Saddam will share no blame, since we will have proven that he complied.

Think about that.

	12-04-2003 02:59									#38
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Think about what? Even if there were no WMD (we probably will find them in the upcoming weeks), we got rid of Saddam. That's good enough for me.

	12-04-2003 03:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Yes, but thanks to American military presence, the Inspectors weren't having to dodge bullets. Can you see how that might make the search a bit more difficult? Mysterious and complex, remember? -=Vel=-

And how many bullets are US troops dodging right now out in the middle of the desert? I know, 0. Oh, and the US gets to shoot back, and susually ends the whole "people shooting at them" bit relatively quick.

Complex yes, but for me complexity is not mysterious....

	12-04-2003 03:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Think about what?

That our country murdered a million Iraqis. If we don't find any WMDs, then that's the case, regardless of whether or not we've liberated them. It still remains to be seen whether we let them collapse into another Afganistan or actually try and keep our word. Frankly, if it's the latter, we're gonna be there for years, just like the occupations of Bosnia and Kosovo, which were only supposed to take a short time.

	12-04-2003 03:09									#41
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If the US government had this concrete proof of the whereabouts of WMD, then they should have shared it with the inspectors.
The few times the US gave a (supposed) heads-up to the inpectors, they went there and found nothing meaning that US's 'concrete' evidence was inaccurate or the US didn't share its really concrete evidence with the inspectors.
If the the first is true then the US was lieing and if the second is true, then why the hell didn't they share it?
More likely, the US never had concrete proof, simply fuzzy evidence interpreted in a certain way to justify war(this isn't to say Saddam doesn't/didn't have WMD, just that the US was acting more certain than it should have been)

That aside, I have to agree with Imran. I was in favour of the war (with UN support, the lack of which pissed me off) not because of WMD (anyone who thought Saddam might fire them at the west was living on another planet) but to liberate the people.

	12-04-2003 04:53									#42
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Blix had a job to do and he failed. His failure lead to the war, pure and simple.

His job was to verify what Saddam said in his Dec. 8 report. Blix did not do this. He didn't even give it a serious college try.

He could have insisted that Saddam permit scientists be interviewed outside Iraq (with all the scientists families outside Iraq as well) but he did not. Without the scientists, there simply was no way Blix could have verified the Saddam report in a country the size of California in a 100 years.

Asking for more time, as he did, was simply ludicrous.

So the question is not whether Blix will be vindicated. He already failed his mission.

	12-04-2003 05:16									#43
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why am i not particularly surprised to see those who were really in favor of the war already ready to make hans blix look like a bumbling fool?

same reason why i'm not particularly surprised to see those who didn't want war willing to give hans blix less of a harsh time.

	12-04-2003 05:20									#44
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I have no opinion of Blix, really. The US made a claim. It failed to prove it's claim and went to war. If no WMDs are found, it will be proven that the US lied to start a war.

That will be nothing new.

	12-04-2003 17:46									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Blix had a job to do and he failed. His failure lead to the war, pure and simple. His job was to verify what Saddam said in his Dec. 8 report. Blix did not do this. He didn't even give it a serious college try. He could have insisted that Saddam permit scientists be interviewed outside Iraq (with all the scientists families outside Iraq as well) but he did not. Without the scientists, there simply was no way Blix could have verified the Saddam report in a country the size of California in a 100 years. Asking for more time, as he did, was simply ludicrous. So the question is not whether Blix will be vindicated. He already failed his mission.

Ah. All assertions and no evidence. Not surprised at all.

	12-04-2003 21:17									#46
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Copied from my other thread:

quote: Not that long ago, Colin Powell presented a report in front of the UNSC, asserting all kinds of reliable and solid information from the CIA with regards to Iraq having NBC weapons. When this was questioned, when it was asked why this information wasn't turned to Hans Blix and his lads, the usual suspects defended by saying blah blah intelligence sources blah blah security concerns blah blah blah. After the US gained control of most of Iraq, we would expect the armed force people head straght towards these secret places and unearth huge amounts of nasty stuff. But we aren't hearing this. So what happened to all this solid information?

	12-04-2003 21:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant If the US government had this concrete proof of the whereabouts of WMD, then they should have shared it with the inspectors.

Concerns that the Iraqis penetrated the inspection process led the CIA to be naturally reluctant to share sensetive information.

	12-04-2003 21:45									#48
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There is no way to judge Blix's performance in this circumstance. He failed. But then again, his mission was impossible.

	12-04-2003 23:14									#49
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In a short amount of time it will become evident if he failed or not. If the americans with full reign of the country and access to people who have no fear of reprisals from Saddam do not find WMD very soon the jig is up and the spin machines will spin like they have never spun before.

	13-04-2003 08:24									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Concerns that the Iraqis penetrated the inspection process led the CIA to be naturally reluctant to share sensetive information.

That's exactly why I wrote the post right above yours.

Any responses to that?

	13-04-2003 08:57									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Ah. All assertions and no evidence. Not surprised at all.

UR, The problem with you leftists is that you had and still have no idea what Blix was supposed to do.

His job was not to find WMD. It was to verify that what Saddam said in the Dec. 8th report was true. Saddam said he had destroyed his WMD. The only way to verify this was to interview those who allegedly destroyed the WMD.

Blix did not interview the scientists. He never insisted that they be interviewed outside Iraq. We told him that Saddam had threatened their lives and the lives of their families. Still Blix did not act.

Blix failed, pure and simple. This has nothing to do with whether Saddam was lying or not. It has to do with Blix and his ineptitude. Blix caused the war.

	13-04-2003 11:13									#52
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Thats funny cause the mandate doesn't seem to say as you do.

The Commission's mandate is the following: to carry out immediate on-site inspections of Iraq's biological, chemical and missile capabilities; to take possession for destruction, removal or rendering harmless of all chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related sub-systems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities; to supervise the destruction by Iraq of all its ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 km and related major parts, and repair and production facilities; and to monitor and verify Iraq's compliance with its undertaking not to use, develop, construct or acquire any of the items specified above. The Commission is also requested to assist the Director General of IAEA, which, under resolution 687, has been requested to undertake activities similar to those of the Commission but specifically in the nuclear field. Further, the Commission is entrusted to designate for inspection any additional site necessary for ensuring the fulfillment of the mandates given to the Commission and IAEA.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscom.htm#MANDATE

	13-04-2003 11:15									#53
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quote: How will the world see Blix in six months?

By turning to the History Channel...

	13-04-2003 18:16									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DanS There is no way to judge Blix's performance in this circumstance. He failed. But then again, his mission was impossible.

Wow, I better by a lotto ticket or something. DanS and I agree on something!

	13-04-2003 19:55									#55
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Thats funny cause the mandate doesn't seem to say as you do. The Commission's mandate is the following: to carry out immediate on-site inspections of Iraq's biological, chemical and missile capabilities; to take possession for destruction, removal or rendering harmless of all chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related sub-systems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities; to supervise the destruction by Iraq of all its ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 km and related major parts, and repair and production facilities; and to monitor and verify Iraq's compliance with its undertaking not to use, develop, construct or acquire any of the items specified above. The Commission is also requested to assist the Director General of IAEA, which, under resolution 687, has been requested to undertake activities similar to those of the Commission but specifically in the nuclear field. Further, the Commission is entrusted to designate for inspection any additional site necessary for ensuring the fulfillment of the mandates given to the Commission and IAEA. http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscom.htm#MANDATE

I am sure you are reading from 1441.

I think this, though, helps explain why Blix was running as fast as he could in the wrong direction. 1441 demanded that Saddam disclose everything on Dec. 8. Blix was supposed to verify that statement. Instead, he pursued his old mandate. Every time the US and the UK tried to get him back on track, he would stear a middle course, giving us some, but not all, of what we wanted.

But he never aggressively tried to verify the Dec. 8 report. This is why Blair proposed the 5 steps that Saddam could take to indicate compliance. These 5 steps should have eminated from Blix.

	15-04-2003 09:42									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The only way to verify this was to interview those who allegedly destroyed the WMD.

I don't think you are in a position to stipulate what actions are/were necessry to verify Iraq's report.

quote: Originally posted by Ned Blix did not interview the scientists. He never insisted that they be interviewed outside Iraq. We told him that Saddam had threatened their lives and the lives of their families. Still Blix did not act. Blix failed, pure and simple. This has nothing to do with whether Saddam was lying or not. It has to do with Blix and his ineptitude. Blix caused the war.

Therefore, the rest of your argument that follows from an invalid assumption is by definition invalid.

Try something better than a bald assertion next time.

	15-04-2003 09:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But he never aggressively tried to verify the Dec. 8 report. This is why Blair proposed the 5 steps that Saddam could take to indicate compliance. These 5 steps should have eminated from Blix.

So where are these NBC weapons? By the looks of Powell's report, Iraq should be overflowing with them. None has been discovered so far. Whatever happened to all those intelligence sources that the CIA had to protect? So what's the hold up? Why haven't the US forces made a beeline to those nasty caches so alleged?

The pro-war faction is now trying to divert attention to somewhere else.

	15-04-2003 12:05									#58
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He will finally retire. Remember that he's 75 years old, with a long career behind him. Here is an exclusive interview from a Swedish newpaper, translated to English.


http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyhet...,291944,00.html

	15-04-2003 12:08									#59
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quote: (anyone who thought Saddam might fire them at the west was living on another planet)

indeed, but WMD pose threats other than a direct attack.

	15-04-2003 16:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre He will finally retire. Remember that he's 75 years old, with a long career behind him.

That's pretty much my impression as well.