15-04-2003 02:27									#31
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It's one of those things where I don't think they should be banned, but they should definitely respect the religion and ethnicity of the Iraqis and not try to preach to people.

	15-04-2003 02:37									#32
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If I understand correctly, we are talking about missionaries here. Don't forget missionaries are people who devoted their lives to bring people to the true god, and genuinely believe it is the ultimate good that could happen for these converts, for it is about the salvation of their immortal soul.

Adressing their mortal needs is secondary. You cannot expect any tolerance or religious respect from a missionary, for his ultimate goal is to convert. The missionary can accomodate the local religion to make the conversion easier, though.

	15-04-2003 02:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If I understand correctly, we are talking about missionaries here. Don't forget missionaries are people who devoted their lives to bring people to the true god, and genuinely believe it is the ultimate good that could happen for these converts, for it is about the salvation of their immortal soul. Adressing their mortal needs is secondary. You cannot expect any tolerance or religious respect from a missionary, for his ultimate goal is to convert. The missionary can accomodate the local religion to make the conversion easier, though.

This tends to be my opinion. In fact, I just posted a somewhat relevant article about Mexican villagers stoning a "witch" to death. Missionaries converted these people and look what happened. If they want to help, fine. If they want to make their religion available to people who are curious, fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to try to push their religion on people who need humanitarian aid.

	15-04-2003 04:12									#34
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quote: What do you mean when you say evangelicals? When I was a little kid evangelical was almost a sinonim(sp?) of Lutheran (the evangelical church), but now evangelicals are pentecostals and tv evangelists.

Plan Austral:

I belong to an Evangelical Mennonite church. They key factor in all Evangelical churchs is a focus on bible studies and on sponsoring missions.

There can be evangelical churches of all stripes, even Catholic Evangelicals.

quote: If I understand correctly, we are talking about missionaries here. Don't forget missionaries are people who devoted their lives to bring people to the true god, and genuinely believe it is the ultimate good that could happen for these converts, for it is about the salvation of their immortal soul.

Spiffor:

Well, here's where you are wrong. This is a misconception towards missionaries that they are only concerned with the spiritual and not the physical well-being of those who they come into contact.

Now, I ask you, who are you more likely to respect, someone who helps you 'just because' or someone who does so with strings attached? I'd say the former. That's what a mission should be about, helping those who are not well off and then sharing the Gospels.

quote: The missionary can accomodate the local religion to make the conversion easier, though.

Where do you get this from, Spiffor? 'Accomodation' can mean many things. Some missions will change traditions of worship to fit the people they are working with, but they cannot, by definition, accomodate everything. To do so renders the church as not Christian, and can greatly confuse people as to the true message of the Church.

Sava:

quote: "You can have medicine and food, as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your true God." While not all missionaries will be like this, a lot of them are. If they want to give aid, they should give to the Red Cross, or some other agency that won't try to convert people.

Where's the quote from, Sava? I would be very surprised to hear any Christian group, even missionaries, preach that they must become believers in order to receive aid.

BTW:

From the source provided:

"Both the Southern Baptist Convention and Samaritan's Purse, in contrast, combine relief efforts with evangelization."

What this means is that they will provide leaflets proclaiming Christ as Savior along with the food, and medicines.

	15-04-2003 04:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Spiffor: Well, here's where you are wrong. This is a misconception towards missionaries that they are only concerned with the spiritual and not the physical well-being of those who they come into contact. Now, I ask you, who are you more likely to respect, someone who helps you 'just because' or someone who does so with strings attached? I'd say the former. That's what a mission should be about, helping those who are not well off and then sharing the Gospels.

I don't really understand the expression "with strings attached", but I'd say I'd respect an altruistic helper, rather than someone who helps me in order to fulfill his political/religious/whatever agenda.
If I had to choose, I'd prefer an organization with a political agenda rather than a religious one, because at least, with politics, I don't have to fear a supernatural punishment if I come to change my mind.

quote: Where do you get this from, Spiffor? 'Accomodation' can mean many things. Some missions will change traditions of worship to fit the people they are working with, but they cannot, by definition, accomodate everything. To do so renders the church as not Christian, and can greatly confuse people as to the true message of the Church.

The succes of the Catholic Church came from the lack of dogmatism from its missionaries. As you put it, many have adopted the 'traditions of worship' in order to have a greater audience in the targeted tribes. This explains why there are so many differences among the traditions of the catholic world, especially across the continents : voodoo for example is a mix of Christianty and traditional African lore. That's what I called "accomodation".
Yet, it doesn't mean these missionaries didn't profess the belief in one god and his heaven.

quote: What this means is that they will provide leaflets proclaiming Christ as Savior along with the food, and medicines.

Let's hope they write this in esperanto
In the post-Saddam Iraq, the possibility of a strong radicalization of religious communities is not to be discarded. If such a climate emerges, these leaflets would be considered as a provocation by the religious people. I don't think it is time to pour oil on the fire.

	15-04-2003 04:34									#36
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quote: The succes of the Catholic Church came from the lack of dogmatism from its missionaries. As you put it, many have adopted the 'traditions of worship' in order to have a greater audience in the targeted tribes.

Actually, the success of the Catholic church stems from it's ability to retain much of the same tradition, across the world. They might perform the service in different dress, with different music, but the rest will remain the same.

quote: voodoo for example is a mix of Christianty and traditional African lore.

And it is not considered Christian. The problem with accomodation is the unintended effect of syncretisation. Your example is one of these.

quote: I don't really understand the expression "with strings attached", but I'd say I'd respect an altruistic helper, rather than someone who helps me in order to fulfill his political/religious/whatever agenda.

Look at it this way, does the person helping you receive any benefit himself from the help that he gives? Missionaries do not profit if they receive more converts, therefore they qualify as altruistic.

	15-04-2003 04:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Look at it this way, does the person helping you receive any benefit himself from the help that he gives? Missionaries do not profit if they receive more converts, therefore they qualify as altruistic.

Indeed, missionaries don't get any reward for helping. But their superior motivation is to bring people to the light. Yes, such a motive is extremely altruistic, because they risk being badly welcome for the salvation of others. But should I be on the recieving end, they would simply look like brainwashed zealots.
Besides, about all humanitarian associations who go to Iraq do it in a genuinely uninterested way, where the one and only aim is to provide humanitarian aid, nothing else. The red cross, the red crescent, Médecins du Monde etc. all go without a political/religious/whatever agenda. I think these organizations are infinitely more altruistic than missionaries' organizations, even though individual missionaries can be genuinely altruistic (I admit, I wonder if the red crescent is completely prselytism-free )

	15-04-2003 05:33									#38
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Ive read/heard that Protestant missionaries have, in some cases, so altered the ancient religions/practices of many of the remaining native americans in such a manner that they can identify their own "pagan" deities as manifestations of "Jesus" and "Mary"...or even of the "Devil".

Such a mixture is definitely not a good thing, from both a Christian and a cultural point of view.

Something like that probably won't happen in Iraq, but you never know...that's why I'd like to see strict government oversight of any missionary work in Iraq.

	15-04-2003 07:40									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Felch, same question : "So it would be OK to let humanitarian aid sent by communist groups or islamist groups bent on proselytism ?"

Absolutely. Again, as long as it wasn't tied to any coercive activity. If Christians, Communists, or Muslims want to bring humanitarian aid to a place and talk to people about why they are doing it (religiously inspired charity, or desire to eliminate hunger and poverty), they have that right. It's what we're all about.

	15-04-2003 07:50									#40
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Felch :
Thanks for the answer. I had assumed you'd tell yes. The question was more spectacular when oriented to a usual conservative

	15-04-2003 07:52									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The question was more spectacular when oriented to a usual conservative

Why? I wouldn't have a problem with it.

	15-04-2003 07:55									#42
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You obviously haven't developed enough hate for the commies and the Islamists then. Go back to GOP school !

	15-04-2003 07:57									#43
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Seriously, the more NGO's we have in there providing humanitarian aid the cheaper it will be for the US.

	15-04-2003 07:59									#44
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This is true, but the potentially proselytist humanitarian NGOs much remain under control. It is not time to bring some outside factions, there will be way enough factions internal to Iraq.

	15-04-2003 08:18									#45
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quote: Thanks for the answer. I had assumed you'd tell yes. The question was more spectacular when oriented to a usual conservative.

Spiffor:
Meaning me? If the missionaries are willing to risk their lives by going to Iraq just so that some may become Christian, I think they should be allowed to do so.

As for those organisations, such as the Red Cross, they have their own jobs. A place for everything, and everything in its place.

	15-04-2003 08:54									#46
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I say let them in, as long as government is paying for the BS stuf.

Let the Iraqis see how dumb US fundies can be, it will be like preventative medicine for their own fundies.

	15-04-2003 09:36									#47
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Isn't it considered particularly egregious in Muslim communities to convert from Islam to Christianity, considering that Mohammed is considered the "Seal of the prophets" and that one who denies him isn't likely to have a nice time in their community?

I think the reason that many Chaldean Christians have survived is because:
A) Saddam's protection
B) They're not particularly evangelic (From what I've read)
C) They have western links that Muslims don't have.

I personally think that missionaries, although well intended, will stir up trouble in the long run. If people want to do relief work, they can join secular organizations like the Red Cross or Red Crescent. If they want to convert people, go to Latin America or Africa where it's less likely that you'll have to be saved.

	15-04-2003 09:43									#48
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Iraq is a modern country thats had secular government for ages. I doubt it'll be much of a problem unless the evangelicals start drawing attention to themselves.

	15-04-2003 16:18									#49
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In Marruecos (that country at the south of Spain, dont know how to spell it in english) even though it is one of the most moderate muslim countries, if you want to convert from islam to christianity you are sent by the government to a psychiatris and only after his judgement (you are sane, you are not insane) then you are allowed to change your religion.

	15-04-2003 16:23									#50
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morocco

	15-04-2003 17:16									#51
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Meaning me ?

No the question was first oriented to Ned, and was rather provocative given his love for Communists and Islamists I have said "usual conservative" because I had forgotten if I had first asked the question to Ned or Shi.

	15-04-2003 17:36									#52
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Obiwan, I made the quote up It was just an example.

	15-04-2003 17:42									#53
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quote: Let the Iraqis see how dumb US fundies can be, it will be like preventative medicine for their own fundies.

A person from the RoK saying this. Now THAT'S HILLARIOUS.
how much of your population are Christian now, 40%?

	15-04-2003 17:50									#54
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I personally feel if anyone of any religion tried to convert me I would be insulted. How would anyone else like it if a Muslim cleric started knocking on doors trying to convert you?
obiwan, I think people would think better of christians if they toned down the proselytising (sp?) a lot (that is, have the focus be humanitarian, and if people ask about the religion you tell them about it, etc.). That way no one would go away with bad blood or be insulted.

	15-04-2003 18:11									#55
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Why insulted? people try to "convert" each other into lots of things, some of them are even as stupid as religion ( ), why should that be stupid?

people try to convert me into:
-liking ska music.
-being a social democrat.
-being gay.
-being a capitalist.
-liking sushi.
-liking certain brands of clothes.

how does that differ?

	15-04-2003 18:22									#56
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Azazel :
There is a strong symbolical value to changing religion. Especially if you are a believer already, you can think the missionaries want to have your people burn in hell or something (because christianty leads to Allah's hell).

I'm sure anybody with strong beliefs would be mad if someone tried to convert them. I've already seen hardrockers eager to pound anybody who'll talk good about rap in their presence, or heterosexuals harassing gays who have hit on them.

Religion is even worse.

	15-04-2003 18:24									#57
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I just loooove fundamentalists, and stoneheaded people.
being angry at someone trying to introduce you to new ideas.

I couldn't care less, honest.

one girl tried to invite me to a movie on scientology, but I dunno. perhaps I'll go, some day.

	15-04-2003 19:25									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel A person from the RoK saying this. Now THAT'S HILLARIOUS. how much of your population are Christian now, 40%?

To be fair, Korea has had lots of Christians for a very long time.

	15-04-2003 19:34									#59
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somewhat more than 200 years IIRC.
are there christians in DPRK?

	15-04-2003 19:43									#60
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i'd imagine so, but i'll bet they keep quiet about it...