16-09-2003 18:45									#31
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quote: No, this is just further proof that only the Chinese have culture. Other Asians just conveniently "borrowed" it.

bah.

the chinese developed it, the koreans perfected it, and the japanese mutated it after stealing it.

	16-09-2003 18:49									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: further proof that only asians really have culture. No, this is just further proof that only the Chinese have culture. Other Asians just conveniently "borrowed" it.

Actually, other asian cultured developed from and beyond it. China kind of fizzled out about 1,000 years ago. It's the darnedest thing. Nearly everything I see here was developed by America, Europe, or Japan. The only things Chinese are about 1,000 old in design or actuality.

	17-09-2003 02:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Nearly everything I see here

DaShi, where are you now? Japan? Or back in China?

	17-09-2003 03:41									#34
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I'm in Hangzhou, wishing I never came. I may move to Shanghai next year. Although I am considering Japan.

	17-09-2003 05:09									#35
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Man this thread is OLD! I started it last April.

	17-09-2003 05:17									#36
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quote: Actually, other asian cultured developed from and beyond it.

I wasn't being serious.

	17-09-2003 05:34									#37
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quote: The Neolithic markings include symbols that resemble the characters for "eye" and "window" and the numerals eight and 20 in the Shang script. "If you pick up a bottle with a skull and crossbones on it, you know instantly that it's poison without the word being spelt out. We're used to signs that convey concepts and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we're seeing here," Dr Harbottle added.

If symbols that convey information qualify as writing, then N American Indians had writing long before Europeans arrived. "Newspaper Rock" at the entrance to Canyonlands Nat'l Park just south of Moab, Utah is a rock face covered with patina (a dark residue) inscribed with a multitude of symbols designed to inform "readers". In fact, in a Nova documentary (The Lost Red Paint People) I saw a rock depicting a "star" symbol on the left, a "celestial serpent" on the right, and a stick man in the middle dating back 7,500 years ago and that was found in Rhode Island I believe. Rock "art" dating back 20-30,000 years would qualify as writing too, and, as Alexander Marshack has proposed, Cro-Magnon inscribed bone with celestial symbols including the phases of the moon. So, we may make a somewhat arbitrary distinction between symbolism
and more recent writing systems that accompanied the complexity of an expanding civilisation. I think that distinction has value, but not to support claims that "writing was invented in the year"...

Btw, concerning the Inca and their quipa system, Incan legend claims they did develop a writing system but a series of natural calamities convinced the priesthood the new invention was anti-"god" and should be done away with.

	17-09-2003 05:57									#38
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If symbols count as writting then the neolithic people who made all of those cave paintings across western Europe would also be amoung the first "writers".

	17-09-2003 06:46									#39
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Depends on the purpose of their paintings, if it was to convey information to others, then yes, it was a "writing" system. If it was to gain favor in the hunt, then no, it had a different purpose. But I can't see why a people who developed painting and the use of symbols would not develop a system of "writing" to inform other members of the community since symbolism is usually a means of conveying information. The problem is on our end - our inability to recognise writing systems.

	17-09-2003 06:57									#40
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cool...

	17-09-2003 07:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If symbols count as writting then the neolithic people who made all of those cave paintings across western Europe would also be amoung the first "writers".

Writings are symbols. Written (or carved, etc.) symbols to be more specific. Anicent Egyptian hieroglyphs are very clear on that.

The thing about writing is you need a system of rules for a group of people.

	21-09-2003 01:56									#42
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So where do you draw the line between a picture and a pictograph?

	21-09-2003 02:28									#43
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Conveying relevant, i.e., tangible info to others. For example, we can look at a picture for ascetic reasons without really knowing the artist's motives but a pictograph/petroglyph may convey actual information like a map or story. "Newspaper Rock" near Moab, Utah has symbols I've seen from other parts of the world that tell a story. The spiral pattern in that region represented water, taking a journey, or the sun depending on the context provided by accompanying symbols. Horned entities could represent deities or shamans, sheep could represent game or celestial bodies depending again on accompanying symbols.

At Newspaper Rock the mural appears below a horned being - celestial deity - with 11 sheep in a line below his feet and the mural broadens out below these 12 images. That could mean a "creator" deity herding 11 celestial bodies and the mural may be the "genesis" story of the Fremont/Anazasi Indians. Unfortunately, the mural was not only added to over the centuries, there is evidence it was added to after contact with migrating Europeans as well as by vandals.

	21-09-2003 08:54									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I'm in Hangzhou, wishing I never came.

Wow, what are you doing in Hangzhou? Are you teaching again?

Why don't you like it? I was under the impression that of all Chinese cities, Hangzhou had the most beautiful men and women (e.g. Hu Bing) - that must count for something!

quote: I may move to Shanghai next year.

	21-09-2003 09:12									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Conveying relevant, i.e., tangible info to others.

Probably also has some of the following characteristics:

1. Stylised. You can draw the sun in an almost infinite number of ways, but you can only draw the ideograph of a sun (in a particular language) in only a few ways.

2. Limited content.

3. Primary goal is to convey information, not to look pretty.

Feel free to add your own.