24-04-2003 10:01									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer That was a pretty good one Mike. The longer winded you get the farther you have to go to twist things around, the better my pov seems.

Your pov is to run Iraq like a US colony, make the Iraqi people pay with their resources for damages inflicted on them by others in response to Hussein. After all, we freed them, they should be grateful enough to pay us for it. That's OK. I'll try to keep things to one syllable (oops) words if that helps?

	24-04-2003 10:07									#32
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Oh, I don't understand what you're saying? I see. In that case one syllable may be best. Thanks too for letting me know my pov. :thumzup:

	24-04-2003 10:16									#33
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Congratulations. I have say to that in three and a half years on Apolyton, this is the single most absurd suggestion on a political issue I've seen. That is quite an accomplishment, and elevates you one step closer to the status of grand master troll.

Why thank you MtG.

Actually I heard on the news that the small criticism Powell, I believe, made of France today - saying that our relationships will be different in the future - set off a firestorm of speculation in France as to what we intended. There were speculations from whether we intended to impose sanctions on France or perhaps even declare war.

It is clear they know they have offended the US.

	24-04-2003 10:19									#34
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Your pov adds up to the same. We run their country now. If we "buy" their oil, we can only pay ourselves as trustee, since they have no banking system, and wouldn't control it anyway under our administration.

It doesn't matter if you're robbing the till. It matters if you're in a position to rob the till, and someone says you're doing it, and you can't prove otherwise because you're the one keeping the books too.

Why do you think the Iranians are already at work?

	24-04-2003 10:23									#35
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MtG: The fact is, the US does own Iraq for the time being. We are the only government the Iraqis have, and so we are responsible for them. That means making sure their resources go to the best benefit of the people.

	24-04-2003 10:25									#36
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MtG, AFAIK, we are paying for everything in Iraq at this time. There is no revenue from anything..

As I said before, it seems critical to get their banking system going again, else nothing else will work.

I heard, but do not have a link, that we will pay Iraqi's in dollars and the dollar will be an officially recognized currency for the forseable future.

	24-04-2003 10:33									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why thank you MtG.

I love you too. :grin: :HeyMarkoswhenyougonnagetthesesmiliesworkingagain?:

quote: Actually I heard on the news that the small criticism Powell, I believe, made of France today - saying that our relationships will be different in the future - set off a firestorm of speculation in France as to what we intended. There were speculations from whether we intended to impose sanctions on France or perhaps even declare war.

Must have been a small firestorm, and must take a real idiot to think we'd ever declare war. Or would we declare war against every nation in Europe who refused to give us overflight rights? (which would be every nation in Europe)

Sanctions? On what legal basis? How much do you think the US financial markets would **** their pants and yank the chokechains back on their boys in the White House and Congress if the US was to even suggest imposing sanctions without legal basis against a developed nation who is also (like the US) a signatory to virtually every international trade agreement?

quote: It is clear they know they have offended the US.

So?

	24-04-2003 10:44									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi MtG: The fact is, the US does own Iraq for the time being. We are the only government the Iraqis have, and so we are responsible for them. That means making sure their resources go to the best benefit of the people.

It also means we avoid taking actions that will play well for the propaganda purposes of our enemies. Getting their resources up and running on an emergency basis with our own companies is fine, as long as we're paying for it. A lot of people (not just on this forum) have suggested that we take their oil to underwrite our costs.

The basic points are simple - the biggest priority outside of humanitarian aid (which is being provided by lots of parties) is getting a functioning financial and administrative system working, so that the Iraqis themselves (even if it's our lackeys temporarily) are able to control the marketing of their oil and the receipt of the payments for it by the time we can get the oilfields fixed and operating at a normal level of production. That will be 2-4 months at least, depending on the area and level of production.

Second, the more we internationalize the rebuilding of Iraq, the less we can be blamed for any ****ups, and the more propaganda value we gain in the Arab world, while our enemies lose the same. Being able to manipulate the Arab street is what will give us the most long-term leverage on other states in the region. Our long-term goal is in the whole Arab / Islamic worlds, not just with Iraq.

	24-04-2003 10:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, AFAIK, we are paying for everything in Iraq at this time. There is no revenue from anything..

Right now, we have no choice, because their fields are virtually out of production, so even smuggling revenues aren't available. The question is whether we expect repayment from their future revenues, and that will get us in more heat than it's worth, by being an Allah-send to our enemies.

quote: As I said before, it seems critical to get their banking system going again, else nothing else will work.

Agreed completely, but we also need to get an exceptional degree of transparency and accountability into the system.

quote: I heard, but do not have a link, that we will pay Iraqi's in dollars and the dollar will be an officially recognized currency for the forseable future.

That would make a lot of sense, since the Dinar is essentially worthless. And damn, I have a bunch, too.

	24-04-2003 13:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As to any French or German or Russian actions against any private company dealing in Iraqi oil, we simply provide the party a remedy against French and German assets in the US.

For complying with UNSC resolutions?

No, not even Cowboy Caesar is that stupid.

	24-04-2003 21:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger For complying with UNSC resolutions? No, not even Cowboy Caesar is that stupid.

The UN resolutions are arguably void ab initio because the sanctions were intended to punish Saddam's regime and were intended to benefit the Iraqi people. Since the reason for the sanctions is gone, the sanctions should be gone as well.

Regardless, if Congress passed such a law, providing a remedy against French and Russian assets if a private company were harmed by confiscations by French and Russia, I see the US courts enforcing it.

Outrageous actions are repaid with outrageous actions.

	24-04-2003 21:18									#42
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The problem with sucha coruse of action Ned is that, well, the Us is a debtor nation. We run our country using borrowed money, mostly from Europe and Japan. For the congress to attack Eueopean capital in the US would be of tragic economic consequences for this country..hey! why not! It would mean the idiots who came up with such a policy would not survive the elctions.

On the US as debtor:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/20/w...iew/20FERG.html


As for the sanctions: they were not put agaisnt the Saddam regime but Iraq, and new admins are responsible for the acts of previous admins. The Us and UK stated that the WMD threat form Iraq warranted war. Well, the WMD threat form Iraq has not been removed yet, so obviously if it was enough for war, how can it not be enough for the continuation of sanctions.

	24-04-2003 21:25									#43
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There are some american assets in Europe as well, and, curiously, even in France. Their owners would not like they be confiscated in retaliation.

	24-04-2003 21:32									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT There are some american assets in Europe as well, and, curiously, even in France. Their owners would not like they be confiscated in retaliation.

Exactly. The French, Germans and Russians ought to stop their pissing and moaning about Iraq at once.

I understand that both the French and Russians on now calling for a suspension of the sanctions. This is a major step in the right direction. Obviously, someone, particularly in France, has calmed down.

	24-04-2003 21:33									#45
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quote: [SIZE=1] As for the sanctions: they were not put agaisnt the Saddam regime but Iraq, and new admins are responsible for the acts of previous admins. The Us and UK stated that the WMD threat form Iraq warranted war. Well, the WMD threat form Iraq has not been removed yet, so obviously if it was enough for war, how can it not be enough for the continuation of sanctions.

This is a real load of bull.

	24-04-2003 21:35									#46
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We want to fix their infrastructure and award the contracts for doing so to American and American ass-kissing countries' firms, then we can suck up the costs. If we want them to pay for it, then we can get out, turn the country over, and let them handle it.

I thought it was clear that this is what we were doing. About $2 billion of our money going to American companies to fix things up. The $3 billion in seized assets go to Iraqi wages and the remainder held in trust for reconstruction directed by Iraqis and as a foreign currency reserve.

	24-04-2003 21:59									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Exactly. The French, Germans and Russians ought to stop their pissing and moaning about Iraq at once. I understand that both the French and Russians on now calling for a suspension of the sanctions. This is a major step in the right direction. Obviously, someone, particularly in France, has calmed down.

I am not sure you get the point... But you missed so many points on this subject ...

The problem is no longer to prevent an illegal war, but to help the Iraqis, and colaterally the US, to sort out the mess. We will soon ear you shouting after the UN :

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=DQU2GMVRTEJVMCRBAEKSFEY?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2623557

	24-04-2003 22:07									#48
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Alright, Davout, what can the UN do better than we can?

The point about the Shi'ites is interesting and concerning at the same time. One question I have is how much of this anti-Americanism is coming from Iran? Second, what do the Kurds, Christians and Sunni Moslems think about a new Iraq run by Shi'ite clerics? Not much, I would conjecture.

	24-04-2003 22:09									#49
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And, Davout, which countries are willing to commit the several hundred thousand combat troops it will take to police Iraq if the US Army pulls out?

The UN does not have the resources to displace the US.

	24-04-2003 22:23									#50
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I am sure that the Pentagone has planned something in case the Iraqis could not afford the presence of the US Army. The solution is probably quite easy since the US refrain from accepting the involvment of some old European countries.

During the 90, in Algeria the political fight between the religious and the military has caused about 100 000 deaths (without foreign intervention). We sincerely hope that a comparable desaster will not occur in Iraq. So, you are right, there is room for deep concerns.

	24-04-2003 22:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is a real load of bull.

Where does it say "Saddam" or bathist in the resolutions? It says Iraq..Iraq is compelled to disarm, Iraq is supposed to pay war reparations to Kuwait and Iran, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq.

As of today, the WMD's that were supposed to be the reason for the continuation of the sanctions through the 1990's have not been acounted for. It was the Us and UK that always stated that only when these things had been accounted for could the whole sancions regime be dropped.

You make up a standard...well, live by it. The Un food for oil program already met the basic needs of Iraqi's (which is why it was instituted). You want the sanctions dropped? prove Iraq is disarmed.

	24-04-2003 23:07									#52
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GePap: The Sanctions state that they are against the government of Iraq. Since there is no currently functioning government, one could argue that there are currently no legal bases for sanctions. Once again, the US is trying to make the UN a relevant force in world affairs and the UN is balking.

MTG: No overflight rights by any European Country??? What continent has Germany been relocated to?? How did I miss an entire country moving to another continent?? Further, I find your arguments to be of the right heart, but of the wrong mind. Time after time, the ME has shown that it reacts positively to decisive action and that half hearted actions go punished by Arab outrage. The US will best serve its cause by quickly and efficiently getting the country up and running and force a fair government (Yes, "force"-remember, it is decisive action that the Arab street responds to.). Once the process of rebuilding is in place and the new government in control, then US forces should withdraw from the scene. These actions will do more to help the US position in the ME than trying to play to every Arab demonstration that comes down the road.

	24-04-2003 23:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Where does it say "Saddam" or bathist in the resolutions? It says Iraq..Iraq is compelled to disarm, Iraq is supposed to pay war reparations to Kuwait and Iran, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. As of today, the WMD's that were supposed to be the reason for the continuation of the sanctions through the 1990's have not been acounted for. It was the Us and UK that always stated that only when these things had been accounted for could the whole sancions regime be dropped. You make up a standard...well, live by it. The Un food for oil program already met the basic needs of Iraqi's (which is why it was instituted). You want the sanctions dropped? prove Iraq is disarmed.

GePap, on the WMD issue, you and I will just have to disagree. The Saddam régime is gone. The coalition is now in charge. Even if the weapons of mass destruction existed, they are now under control of the coalition, not Iraq, which is led by the United States and the UK, permanent members of the Security Council. Iraq has been disarmed!

On the oil for food program, the UN takes a massive cut for "administration." Why should the Iraqi's pay for this?

As to reparations, I personally believe that they should be ended. The Iraqi people are just as much victims of that Nazi Saddam Hussein as are Iran and Kuwait. One lessen the United States taught the world at the end of World War II is that permanent peace can only be guaranteed when we do not punish the people of a defeated nation with reparations when the régime responsible for the damage has been totally eliminated. I find an amazing that you, GePap, have not learned this lesson.

	24-04-2003 23:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ned GePap, on the WMD issue, you and I will just have to disagree. The Saddam régime is gone. The coalition is now in charge. Even if the weapons of mass destruction existed, they are now under control of the coalition, not Iraq, which is led by the United States and the UK, permanent members of the Security Council. Iraq has been disarmed! On the oil for food program, the UN takes a massive cut for "administration." Why should the Iraqi's pay for this? As to reparations, I personally believe that they should be ended. The Iraqi people are just as much victims of that Nazi Saddam Hussein as are Iran and Kuwait. One lessen the United States taught the world at the end of World War II is that permanent peace can only be guaranteed when we do not punish the people of a defeated nation with reparations when the régime responsible for the damage has been totally eliminated. I find an amazing that you, GePap, have not learned this lessen.

Ned: This is on the money.

	25-04-2003 00:36									#55
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The UN demanded Iraq pay war reparations. Unless Kuwait and Iran waive them, tough luck for Iraq. War reparations are an old tool: you can give me one example were they failed, and that was of Germany in 1919. The Germans forced the French to pay in 1871, the French promptly paid, and that was that. I don;t buy the "lessons of hisotry" bull anyway.

quote: GePap, on the WMD issue, you and I will just have to disagree. The Saddam régime is gone. The coalition is now in charge. Even if the weapons of mass destruction existed, they are now under control of the coalition, not Iraq, which is led by the United States and the UK, permanent members of the Security Council. Iraq has been disarmed!

"They are in the control of the coolition?" since when? As far as I know, the coolition does not know where they are.Plus, of course, the US and UK are currently the occupying powers. They adminsiter Iraq for now, and thus they are responsible for Iraq's obligations, plus the US and UK aren't supposed to have chemical and biological WMD either! Sanctions are there to insure no prohibited weapons porgrams exist in Iraq, or their fruits exist in Iraq. The uS and Uk have yet to prove either. Until they do, other states have a sound egal basis to keep sanction on Iraq.

quote: On the oil for food program, the UN takes a massive cut for "administration." Why should the Iraqi's pay for this?

If so, why is the UN short on Money? Iraq has 40 billion in these accounts. If your claim were true (please provide figures or links), then the UN would be very well of indeed.

quote: GePap: The Sanctions state that they are against the government of Iraq. Since there is no currently functioning government, one could argue that there are currently no legal bases for sanctions. Once again, the US is trying to make the UN a relevant force in world affairs and the UN is balking.

As I said to Ned, the US and UK are occupying powers. They are in charge of Iraq, and thus there is an authority in Iraq. And the future Iraqi government will still be under sanctions until they meet the obligations, unless the current occupying powers do it in the meantime. The notion that an area in narchy can't be placed under sanctions has no legal basis. After all, sanctions regimes are binding on all members, not only the one member being sanctioned.

	25-04-2003 00:41									#56
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Nuke the French and the Russians will fall into line.

We can then pay for the nukes we used by selling French assets in the US to Iraq, using their oil to pay. This we can do for them, being the nice guys that we are.

Actually, it's Japan all over again, but this time there's oil in the ground so it gives the liberals something to whine about.

	25-04-2003 00:48									#57
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Who cares what the UN thinks about anything. Let them have their irrelevant debating club while the United States gets the job done. There is plenty of money for France and Russia and the war debts in Iraq as long as the UN does not get a hold of it. Iraq will be a wealthy country in a few years, like Kuwait. Meanwhile the UN will be *****ing about the cost of tea in China.

	25-04-2003 01:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Who cares what the UN thinks about anything. Let them have their irrelevant debating club while the United States gets the job done. There is plenty of money for France and Russia and the war debts in Iraq as long as the UN does not get a hold of it. Iraq will be a wealthy country in a few years, like Kuwait. Meanwhile the UN will be *****ing about the cost of tea in China.

Yeah, wealthy like Nigeria and Venezuela too!
Oh, Lincol, the UN already has a hold of it, since the only legal Iraqi sales of oil must go through the UN. You see, that is the point of this discussion.

Oh, and get the job done? you mean like in Afghanistan? Yeah, we will get the JOB DONE.....

	25-04-2003 01:44									#59
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Yea, too bad the women in Afghanistan can go out in the street now unescorted. I guess we just ruin everything. We should have just left them alone so that they could harbor terorists in peace!

	25-04-2003 01:46									#60
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Isn't it the UN that isn't getting the job done in Afghanistan? I thought they were in charge of the reconstruction? Perhaps I'm wrong...