28-04-2003 02:12									#91
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Ok, I see where you're coming from. You're talking a completely different ballgame... the pragmatic side. ALMOST falls under the capability catch, but not quite.

	28-04-2003 02:15									#92
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There is a difference between what one is capable of doing, and willing to do, with the latter being a far better judgement of what will and can happen than the former. I am capable of murder, I am not willing to do it: most likely, I won't.

	28-04-2003 02:20									#93
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I think that we should stay in there for a LONG time, like we did in Japan. With patience it will work.

The Problem is that the longer you stay there the more you are seen as a conqueror, especially by the neighbouring countries.

It could give rise to the Islamists and could probably cause new recruits for islamistic Terrorist Organizations in the Region
(and could probably destabilize a couple of the more secular countries in the region, such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordania, because of islamistic uprisings there).

	28-04-2003 02:22									#94
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Proteus - again, look at Japan. Do they consider us to be conquerors?

	28-04-2003 02:25									#95
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The Japanese government surrendered: we weren't conquerors since their legitimate government had transfer to us its legitimacy. The same is not true for Iraq.

	28-04-2003 02:28									#96
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Do you really consider Saddam to be a legitimate government? Does he rule by the will of the people?

Last time I checked, his campaign slogan was "A vote for Saddam is a vote for not getting your feet chopped off without anesthetic."

	28-04-2003 02:32									#97
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Spiffor - I personally thing that quality of life comes second to political freedom.

That's why I told this : " Besides, the army is a tool in the hands of the politicians, and its interventions can be ill-advised, and make people suffer for the sake of some powerful people's greed."

I know many people in the US believe the army is here to "protect their freedom". Well, it has been so as long as the US had to fight for its independance. But since then, the army has only been used for the nation's power. Was it your freedom that your army defended during the US-Spain war ? During WW1 ? During the small attempts at colonization in the Pacific ? During WW2 ? During the Korea war ? During Vietnam ? During the Granada intervention ? During Gulf Wars 1&2 ?
Nope, the army got involved in these for very cynical reasons, first of all power. And I don't even wonder who defended whose liberty during the American civil war.

Your army protects your country and promotes its interests abroad. Those who protect your freedom are political or associational activists that make sure freedoms aren't spitted upon. Granted, they can only be efficient in a democratic environment, i.e if the US isn't invaded by an hostile power. But the army only indirectly "defends your freedom", and it isn't even its fundamental task.

If you want to protect your freedom as well as others, working at something like Amnesty International, or a similar NGO, might prove much more useful, and much less disappointing.

	28-04-2003 02:35									#98
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Our army protects OTHER people's liberty.

Yes, it is vulnerable to the politicians, but it is also the most potent force for good that our country has.

	28-04-2003 02:38									#99
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Proteus - again, look at Japan. Do they consider us to be conquerors?

I haven´t heard from Japanese making Demonstrations holding Transparents with "No USA"
After all the Japanese were very fixated on the Tenno (which you wisely left on his throne after the japanese Capitulation).
And after all they had a culture where it is very honorable to obey your superiors.

In Iraq on the other hand the Demonstrations against US-Presence began a few days after you had taken Baghdad and the Members of the Government had misteriously dissappeared.

And the Islamistic Movement which is very present in the Near East is after all very Anti-USA.

So expect a tougher job there

	28-04-2003 02:39									#100
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So we stay longer, build a few temples to keep them from culture-flipping

	28-04-2003 02:41									#101
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Better build also Collosseums and Universities.

You need a lot of Culture Points there

	28-04-2003 02:42									#102
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And don't forget libraries!

	28-04-2003 02:43									#103
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Won't you starve the cities for that effect too ?

	28-04-2003 02:44									#104
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No, just rush workers... too bad we didn't capture any slaves...

:silly:

	28-04-2003 02:46									#105
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The Japanese government surrendered: we weren't conquerors since their legitimate government had transfer to us its legitimacy. The same is not true for Iraq.

eh...huh? what does this have to do with anything. If a country surrenders or if it collapses?

	28-04-2003 02:47									#106
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Surrender conveys legitimacy on the new rulers.

EDIT: to the people of the land under new management

	28-04-2003 03:19									#107
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Surrender conveys legitimacy on the new rulers. EDIT: to the people of the land under new management

So....ummm the NA/US defeat of the Taliban was less legitimate than the defeat of the French by the Germans? Maybe you are valuing "legitamacy" a little too much. What if a country just doesn't feel like surrendering but collapses. What is the difference. How can you say a surrending country is not conquered?? Too much silliness here.

	28-04-2003 03:29									#108
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I didn't. I said that the people in the defeated nation would feel it to be more legitimate.