30-04-2003 06:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker It's a meaningless "start" if people in Africa don't incorporate safegaurds like protected sex and abstinance. But wearing condoms is viewed as unmanly and promiscuity is the driving force behind the AIDS problem. And yes, I want to do nothing at all, I want Africans to be responsible. That's the only way to stem the AIDS problem. Throwing money around won't help because it won't make anyone there more responsible.

It is either $15 Billion or nothing.

	30-04-2003 06:07									#32
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Orange, education won't help either if the people have customs and practices that spread AIDS. That's the problem in Africa. People have been educating Africans for centuries about the hazards of promiscuity and nearly 2 decades wrt AIDS, yet promiscuity and unprotected sex are still driving AIDS.

	30-04-2003 06:12									#33
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Fez -

quote: It is either $15 Billion or nothing.

It's nothing either way, the 15 billion will go into the pockets of dictators, legislatures, and health care workers. What little education will be passed along will be ignored just as it has in the past. The people there who are open to learning about prevention have already been taught and those who aren't open to learning won't listen because prevention conflicts with deeply embedded customs.

	30-04-2003 06:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I agree with Floyd, for some slightly different reasons. NO ONE was "afflicted" with AIDS - they got it because they did things even with the knowledge that they could easily recieve a lethal disease because of it, even with the knowledge that they had a SIGNIFICANT CHANCE of recieving a lethal disease because of it. The fact that they have AIDS is SOLELY their responsibility.

This is blatantly not true for most of the third-world AIDS cases, especially in Africa. Remember, they have governments who actually state they don't believe the disease is sexually transmitted. There is an appalling lack of education about AIDS in the world, and for a long time the Chinese government didn't acknowledge its existence. Now it looks like over 40 million Chinese will be HIV+ within the next 5-10 years.

	30-04-2003 06:22									#35
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quote: You can say healthcare is part of the right to life, but you're missing the point in that one right can't conflict with another. That is, the right to life can't be at the expense of my property rights.

Actually, these rights can conflict. Right to life should trump property rights.

	30-04-2003 06:28									#36
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"Remember, they have governments who actually state they don't believe the disease is sexually transmitted. There is an appalling lack of education about AIDS in the world, and for a long time the Chinese government didn't acknowledge its existence. Now it looks like over 40 million Chinese will be HIV+ within the next 5-10 years."

Whose fault is this? What will be the point of giving them condoms if their own government is telling them aids is not an STD.

	30-04-2003 06:44									#37
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Boris,

quote: This is blatantly not true for most of the third-world AIDS cases, especially in Africa.

So, wait a second. You're saying that sexually transmitted AIDs couldn't be drastically reduced by not having casual sex with multiple partners? Because that's all I'm saying. Any other conclusion makes no sense. I'm not saying anything about non-sexually transmitted AIDs, just AIDs that gets transmitted through sex.

quote: Remember, they have governments who actually state they don't believe the disease is sexually transmitted.

Yes, well, people get the governments they deserve. People who are ignorant about the consequences of casual sex with multiple partners usually end up with ignorant governments.

quote: There is an appalling lack of education about AIDS in the world, and for a long time the Chinese government didn't acknowledge its existence. Now it looks like over 40 million Chinese will be HIV+ within the next 5-10 years.

None of this is my problem.

	30-04-2003 06:45									#38
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obiwan,

quote: Actually, these rights can conflict. Right to life should trump property rights.

So you're telling me that if you are about to die, I should be forced to donate all of my life savings to buy you a kidney?

	30-04-2003 06:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "Remember, they have governments who actually state they don't believe the disease is sexually transmitted. There is an appalling lack of education about AIDS in the world, and for a long time the Chinese government didn't acknowledge its existence. Now it looks like over 40 million Chinese will be HIV+ within the next 5-10 years." Whose fault is this? What will be the point of giving them condoms if their own government is telling them aids is not an STD.

'Cause condoms are cheaper and easier to get and distribute than medicines. The point is to provide as much aid as possible/feasible with the hope that most of it will get to who it's intended for. Congress knows that money will disappear from the coffers on account of corruption, but there isn't the political drive to do something more definitive about that.

	30-04-2003 07:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, wait a second. You're saying that sexually transmitted AIDs couldn't be drastically reduced by not having casual sex with multiple partners? Because that's all I'm saying. Any other conclusion makes no sense. I'm not saying anything about non-sexually transmitted AIDs, just AIDs that gets transmitted through sex.

Uhh, no, where did I say anything like that? I was refuting skywalker's assertion that everyone who had AIDS has no excuse because they "knew the risks." In places where education is virtually nil, no, they don't know the risks, or worse, they have misinformation about it.

Nowhere did I discuss anything mentioned above.

quote: Yes, well, people get the governments they deserve. People who are ignorant about the consequences of casual sex with multiple partners usually end up with ignorant governments.

Study some history of Africa, particularly the relation of the current quality of governments to the history of European colonialism. The people have the governments that Europeans thought they deserved, and that wealthy Western countries like the U.S. have a vested interest in keeping in power to suit economic aims. Tell me, does Mugabe rule by the will of his people?

quote: None of this is my problem.

I'm aware of your mentality here, and I dismiss it. I don't think your unwillingness to pay taxes is adequate grounds for not trying to head off a humanitarian catastrophe. Welcome to the world of representative democracy.

	30-04-2003 07:52									#41
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"None of this is my problem."
Of course it isn't. Fortunately for us, you aren't the ruler of our nation.
Rulers are expected to show empathy.

	30-04-2003 08:30									#42
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More political grandstanding.

to Mr. Bush:
If you really gave a rat's ass about AIDS in Africa, then you'd support the generic drug program that would allow Africa to distribute drugs that help fight the AIDS and HIV viruses. But instead, you want to protect pharamaceutical corporations so that they can profit. You go on TV and pretend like we are helping them. Sure, we'll save 2 million people. WHILE 30 MILLION MORE DIE. You are pathetic.

Here's a suggestion for social conservatives. Instead of trying to prostelesize (sp?) and trying to force people to conform to your morality standards, how about accept the reality that some people just want to have sex and find a solution that doesn't involve your holier than thou approach to life.

	30-04-2003 08:37									#43
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Sava - why should we spend huge amounts of money on extremely expensive, toxic drugs that can barely hold back a nearly (maybe completely? I think so) 100% fatal disease when we can use it to keep more people from getting the disease. The only way to solve the problem is prevention.

Not that I think we should even send money that far, but the illogic of your post jarred me.

	30-04-2003 08:38									#44
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If the drugs don't work, then why not let the African and other agencies produce their own generic versions? You seem to be talking about something else.

	30-04-2003 08:46									#45
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Wow, do you really think this is a bad idea Dave? That's not cool man.

	30-04-2003 08:46									#46
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You're talking about those drugs that are supposed to keep AIDS at bay, right? THOSE are extremely expensive, toxic, and don't work too well. I don't think it would help to 'let them make generic versions', because we haven't been stopping them. Also, I read a few science magazines (I'm also in Biology right now), and it seems that to combat AIDS once you're infected that's all we'll ever be able to do, as it's a virus.

	30-04-2003 09:01									#47
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monkspider - if you examine the real cause of AIDS, and the fact that it can't really be cured yet...i think you'll see that this is a waste of money as well. There are better places it can be spent...if you want to spend it on the fight against AIDS, give it to companies researching the cure.

	30-04-2003 09:07									#48
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orange... AIDS is a virus. There CAN NOT be a cure. They have drugs that will hold it at bay. Look in my above posts. However, NO virus has EVER been cured. Not even a cold.

What they are working on are vaccines for AIDS. That would be incredibly useful.

	30-04-2003 09:10									#49
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quote: Originally posted by orange monkspider - if you examine the real cause of AIDS, and the fact that it can't really be cured yet...i think you'll see that this is a waste of money as well. There are better places it can be spent...if you want to spend it on the fight against AIDS, give it to companies researching the cure.

I know you have nothing but the best of intentions Orange, but I am not so sure that some of the people in Africa who are infected would agree with you.
Of course, there is no reason why we couldn't have both, relief for the people, and funding for the scientists working on a cure. But sadly, I wouldn't expect that to happen anytime soon.

	30-04-2003 09:48									#50
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I'm not saying that condoms are bad to use. I'm saying that the most effective way to prevent sexually transmitted AIDs is to avoid casual sex. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be up for debate.

The most effective way to prevent pollution is to go back to the caves. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be up for debate.

if you want to spend it on the fight against AIDS, give it to companies researching the cure.

Shouldn't you give money to universities instead? Companies wouldn't be able to deploy the cure effectively.

	30-04-2003 09:48									#51
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quote: orange... AIDS is a virus. There CAN NOT be a cure. They have drugs that will hold it at bay. Look in my above posts. However, NO virus has EVER been cured. Not even a cold. What they are working on are vaccines for AIDS. That would be incredibly useful.

I think you know what I meant
Let's not get into a semantics debate here.

quote: I know you have nothing but the best of intentions Orange, but I am not so sure that some of the people in Africa who are infected would agree with you. Of course, there is no reason why we couldn't have both, relief for the people, and funding for the scientists working on a cure. But sadly, I wouldn't expect that to happen anytime soon.

Prolonging their death by a few years at the cost of billions is not a solution that I'd like. If the results were better and the cost was smaller, I'd be more in favour of it. I don't think this is the correct solution to the problem, and the real way to solve it is to prevent the spread of the disease by educating and bringing up standards of living.

	30-04-2003 09:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Sava - why should we spend huge amounts of money on extremely expensive, toxic drugs that can barely hold back a nearly (maybe completely? I think so) 100% fatal disease when we can use it to keep more people from getting the disease. The only way to solve the problem is prevention.

You are way off.

Do a quick search on "AIDS cocktail treatment." It is a very effective way of holding the virus at bay. Granted, it is not a cure, and the drugs cost a lot of $. Then again, the cost of these drugs is a highly controversial issue.

	30-04-2003 09:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker orange... AIDS is a virus. There CAN NOT be a cure. They have drugs that will hold it at bay. Look in my above posts. However, NO virus has EVER been cured. Not even a cold.

Define "cure."

	30-04-2003 09:58									#54
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quote: So you're telling me that if you are about to die, I should be forced to donate all of my life savings to buy you a kidney?

No, because buying kidneys on the black market is illegal.

I'm thinking more along the lines of providing shelter to someone out in the cold, who comes to your door.

	30-04-2003 12:13									#55
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You see kids? if we'd invest more in retroviral engineering research, all of this could be easily undone by creating 2 copies of the Delta-23 gene in each genetic system, thus curing AIDS for good.


This message was presented for you by the "Intelligent People For Genetic Engineering". Have a nice day.











Oh, and generally, another pointless debate vs. Floyd. the guy doesn't believe in "The Common Good". It's ****ing useless people, give it a rest.

	30-04-2003 12:30									#56
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quote: the 15 billion will go into the pockets of dictators, legislatures, and health care workers. What little education will be passed along will be ignored just as it has in the past. The people there who are open to learning about prevention have already been taught and those who aren't open to learning won't listen because prevention conflicts with deeply embedded customs.

Unfortunetly I believe this may be the end result .

However, we cannot stand by and not try! I mean, yes, totally selling our pharma companies up the river without a paddle is a piss poor, idiotic idea, but we should do everything else we can.

Bush

quote: This message was presented for you by the "Intelligent People For Genetic Engineering".

I prefer People for Intelligent Genetics (or PIG)

	30-04-2003 16:07									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You see kids? if we'd invest more in retroviral engineering research, all of this could be easily undone by creating 2 copies of the Delta-23 gene in each genetic system, thus curing AIDS for good. This message was presented for you by the "Intelligent People For Genetic Engineering". Have a nice day.

It's Delta32, you buffoon.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Oh, and generally, another pointless debate vs. Floyd. the guy doesn't believe in "The Common Good". It's ****ing useless people, give it a rest.

I wasn't even trying.

	30-04-2003 17:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Oh, and generally, another pointless debate vs. Floyd. the guy doesn't believe in "The Common Good".

I donīt believe in him either

	30-04-2003 21:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yes, well, people get the governments they deserve. People who are ignorant about the consequences of casual sex with multiple partners usually end up with ignorant governments.

Shame on you.

	30-04-2003 21:19									#60
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I stand corrected, UR.

quote: I prefer People for Intelligent Genetics (or PIG)

just call me a PIG, then.