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Rogan Josh
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Terrorism is not a legitimate form of warfare (ie. it shouldn't be supported by governments) but neither is 'freedom fighting'.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
BTW I think 11 million is too high in terms of directly responsible deaths (i.e. war-related). However, indirectly (i.e. consequences of foreign and economic policy), I'd think it may even be waaaay too low. |
hi ,
*cough*
when the IDF sended a couple people to goma zaire as liason officers in relief efforts they found themselfs standing on layers of humans , ....
rwanda / burundi / zaire lets say about 2.5 > 4 million , ....
1975 > 1980 cambodia , 1.5
somalia , eritrea , 3 million
shall we go on , .....
ethiopia , count stopped at 2.2 , sudan , more then a million ,
not to mention about all the people who are buying a farm each day cause they step on landmines , .....
bye
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Bereta_Eder
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Why wouldn't it compare?
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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It's all simply war. where did things get so screwed up?
A terrorist, be it a suicide bomber or whatever you want to call a terrorist, is simply someone at war with you who does not follow the same set of 'rules' that you've outlined, as far as combat goes. who says they have to??
that makes them an enemy of you. beyond that you can call them whatever you like.
Sure, some dress in ways that make them all but impossible to tell them apart from anyone else. Some (like the US) 'dress' their weapons so it's all but impossible to see them coming. what's the difference? That could be debated forever. In the end, be it a terrorist or a cruise missile, you've got a pile of dead people.
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Straybow
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SG(2)… gone but not forgotten
Jan 1970
time: 23:27
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The operative word there is "helped." Contras didn't oust the Sandanistas militarily, neither did the US oust the commies from Russia militarily. We won by economic victory, and when the Soviet Union fell, so did the Sandanistas who depended upon them for economic support.
Still haven't shown millions of deaths attributed to American policy. Now you say you "blame not only on the US but on the Soviets and the Europeans."
Where did you blame the Soviets? I cant find it… [sorry, missed that post somehow] and certainly che wasn't blaming the commies for anything when he first made the claim of 11 million casualties due to US policies.
Last edited by Straybow on 05-05-2003 at 23:22
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
There's no need for self-righteousness in justifying action against Castro's Cuba. US had strong economic ties with pre-Castro Cuba. Castro nationalized industries and Cuban expats (now predominantly US citizens) suffered losses. |
The Cuban ex-pat who had their property seized were corrupt murderers and torturers, fellow travelors of Bautista and his National Guard. I have no sympathy for them. As for US companies, their problem was that Cuba nationalized the companies, and then paid for them with 20-year government bonds at the companies declared tax-values. The companies said they were being paid way too little, but that's their fault for cheating Cuba of taxes. If you tell the government your 7 million dollar business is only worth 2 million when it's time to pay taxes, and then they take it from you and give you two million for it, you screwed yourself.
The 11 million number is from John Stockwell and Noam Chomsky. Stockwell, was the former station chief of CIA operations against Angola, so he was in a position to know what we did and where. The figure given in 1990, was ten million and since then we've waged several wars and starved a country. That includes two million in Indochina and 2.5 million in Korea. Most of the people in those wars died as a result of areal bombing, and as we were the only side doing the bombing, that makes us the responsible party. On top of that, there are millions of Africans killed in US sponored proxy wars in Angola, Mozambique, the Horn of Africa. Maybe about a half a million Latin Americans died because of murderous governments installed by US sponsored coups. Half a million Indonesians died the same way. A third of the population of East Timor were killed by the Indonesians in an invasion that occured the day after President Ford left Indonesia (we gave our assent). The list goes on and on.
This doesn't include deaths we could have prevented through adequate health programs in the 3rd World.
BTW, the Sandinistas fell before the Soviets. Actually, they didn't fall, they were defeated in an election after ten years of civil war in which the Nicaraguan people finally just surrendered. The US ground down their will to resist, killing 40,000 Nicaraguans (out of three million, that would be as if someone killed 4 million Americans). The only actual socialist democracy to exist, and the US destroyed it . . . militarily. Since then, Nicaragua's become a cease pool of poverty. The US keeps pumping in millions of dollars each election to ensure that the Sandanistas loose. Imagine the outcry if China spent 283 million dollars during our elections. But it's legitimate when we do it. 
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
"Hatred towards the US"
Yeah, that's why Cuba has to execute 3 guys who hijack a ferry to try to escape to the US, etc |
I would point out, hypocrite, that kidnapping is a capital offense in the US. Those "hijackers" put the lives of fifty people at risk in a close-shore boat by taking it into the open seas. That would be like complaining that a group of Mexicans get executed after hijaking a bus into the Sonoran desert and threatening to shoot the passengers (remember, the hijackers threatened to throw passangers in the sea) if they were taken back to Mexico.
Free citizenship, money, and help finding a job. Yeah, right, they come to the US to escape Communism. Bullsh*t. They come for the same reason everyone comes to the US, better jobs!
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The 11 million number is from John Stockwell and Noam Chomsky. Stockwell, was the former station chief of CIA operations against Angola, so he was in a position to know what we did and where. The figure given in 1990, was ten million and since then we've waged several wars and starved a country. That includes two million in Indochina and 2.5 million in Korea. |
And that also seems to include both civilian and military deaths of both sides, and even then, It's an overestimate:
Vietnam:
"U.S. casualties in Vietnam during the era of direct U.S. involvement (1961-72) were more than 50,000 dead; South Vietnamese dead were estimated at more than 400,000, and Viet Cong and North Vietnamese at over 900,000. "
That's ~1.4 million.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/se...EndoftheWar.asp
Korean:
"Casualties in the war were heavy. U.S. losses were placed at over 54,000 dead and 103,000 wounded, while Chinese and Korean casualties were each at least 10 times as high. "
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/k/koreanw1a.asp
That's about ~1.2 million.
And it puts the entire blame of all casualties on both sides, civilian and military, solely on the US. Never mind the UN involvement in Korea or the French in Vietnam. Or that you were talking about how the US doesn't minimize civilian casualties, and indeed, deliberately targets them, when you mentioned the 11 million number.
quote:
This doesn't include deaths we could have prevented through adequate health programs in the 3rd World.
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So we're responsible for the death of people we could (debatebly) save? Maybe the US is guilty of the twelve million civilians slaughtered by the Nazis, too?
Give me a break. 
Last edited by Edan on 07-05-2003 at 08:40
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05-05-2003 12:52
Master Zen, you still haven't shown that the US "has blood on its hands" for some alleged 11 million deaths. What isn't "alright" is accusing the US, or the West in general, of causing 11 million deaths without substantiation. Where and who are these alleged victims?
Yes, we also helped to topple the Sandanistas in Nicaragua. And the 11 million casualties were in Chile and Nicaragua? No, not even 100k IIRC.
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