05-05-2003 20:09									#31
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Oy vey, that wasn't nearly as coherent as I wanted it to be, nor as in-depth. Oh well.

A sidenote or two...

When fighting the Babylonians, I found it useful to take x number of cities, and when successfully counterattacked by a Bowman, to make the peace (as long as it's not dishonorable). The Babs will then spend their GA just catching back up to where they were before.

Also, I've noticed that the Turks tend NOT to be well-defended come the early medival era. I had no difficultly conquering 80% of their cities with the help of some allies, even though they had been connected to iron for some time, using Immorals alone.

Cultivate the Zulu as allies. They will pour all their effort into producing Impis that weaken first of all themselves, secondarily your mutual enemy. And it will cause more culture flipping, from Zululand to Persia, then if they had been peacefully building temples.

Plus, it keeps them off your back, and they won't conquer anything with Impis - just defeat stray archers in the field (which is valuable for Persia, defence-wise)

	06-05-2003 22:19									#32
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More Notes About Persia At War

In proceeding to conquer your continent, you might want to proceed with caution in terms of who you cultivate as neighbors.

It has been my experience that the Zulu, though they are perhaps a desirable target, make good allies. They rarely backstab and though their masses of units look intimidating, they're all impis and of little threat.

The Chinese, Arabs, Indians and Koreans, on the other hand, are to be watched if you share the continent with them. All are opportunistic enough to send troops deep into your homeland and try to conquer a core city if they think they can take it. More likely, if you beat them to a target - not that you shouldn't - they will take the stack intended for your shared enemy and hurl it at your new possessions.

The Chinese, having betrayed me, suffered easily at my hands coutesy of my knights and immortals. I had them beaten before they could launch a single Rider; all of China's cities were hideously underdefended.

Still, having brought the Zulu, Indians, Arabs, Koreans, Japanese, Mongols and Babylonians along for the ride, I now find myself in a position to suffer an assault from any of my well-armed neighbors. I think the Indians are the only ones that are going to do it, in which case I'll have to marshal the world against them. Still, any of my neighbors could easily overpower a few frontier towns... all of them together would be a real nightmare.

Anyone have similar experiences with the Persians at war?

	07-05-2003 01:03									#33
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I quit the game I referred to above when I didn't get either salt or coal to go with the horses and iron that weren't there either.

After several tries as the Persians the one comment I would make is that masses of Immortals are not a substitute for combined arms with horsemen and catapults. I would go as far as to say that Immortals aren't particularly useful over ordinary swordsmen unless you are facing Rome/Carthage/Greece - and if you play with cultural linking on you usually won't.

For a scientific/industrious civ I definitely prefer the Ottomans whose UU may not last as long but is really good when you have it.

	07-05-2003 01:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV After several tries as the Persians the one comment I would make is that masses of Immortals are not a substitute for combined arms with horsemen and catapults. I would go as far as to say that Immortals aren't particularly useful over ordinary swordsmen unless you are facing Rome/Carthage/Greece - and if you play with cultural linking on you usually won't.

Yes, isn't that vexing? Why do you never start near Persia's historical enemies?

I'd like to hear some input from someone who plays as the Persians and doesn't wage war with Immortals... (for comparisons' sake)

	07-05-2003 19:47									#35
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Persians as Builder
(and Cavalry Conquerer)

No one volunteered any input so I started a whole new Persia game and researched myself!

Having reached a point in my warmongering game where my reputation was globally sullied and my remaining neighbors could only be destroyed at great cost, I thought I'd try again and wait for Chivalry/MT to go to war, keeping an Immortal or two around to trigger my GA.

What I found was that I acheived much better results by REXing, trading, keeping on good terms with my neighbors and out-pacing them in development and research than I did grinding them out of existence with Immortals.

Of course, the game was different. I was not bordered by Turks, Babylonians, Mongols and Japanese: my neighbors were Zululand to the South, and Korea to the North. Across a mountainous isthmus from Korea was Babylon, Arabia, India and Turkey.

Still, my starting area was the same: fertile and mountainous both, with 3 luxuries within REXing reach.

I REXed harder than before, and didn't pop too many Barbarian villages, a MAJOR plus, as I netted Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism through huts, plus plenty of gold. This seems like a tiny factor but can really make a difference.

Still, as before, the rest of the world keep me running to keep up in tech until the end of the Ancient Era, when I overcame them.

Accepting "natural borders" with Korea and Zululand, I developed while the others kept sending settler/defender teams to various unclaimed areas in the "ether" between Babylon, Arabia, Turkey. This was the time I could have been building Immortals; instead, I build the GL and HG, and libraries, temples and marketplaces.

Surprise! Upon building the HG, I triggered my GA without using a single Immortal. It came at the perfect time and netted me Sun Tzu's, Sistine's and Leo's, just like I wanted. I HADN'T switched to Monarchy - I wanted to the beat the Babs to the HG and we were a few turns apart so I avoided the anarchy of revolution. This was of course not ideal, but nonetheless my despotic GA got me discoveries every 6-7 turns.

It also sent me on the path to MT. I have just conquered Korea, my first war. Zululand is not a concern as city after city defects to me.

The only thing I'm chagrined about is Babylon's near-parity in tech, and the fact that, somehow, they built both Newton's and... JS BACH'S!!!

So, now, it's off to war against Babylon. I've given everyone gunpowder to gang up against the Babs. It'll be a difficult war and my only concern is getting to Babylon (Bach's) and Ur (Newton's) before anyone else does. That would mean I'd have to take them on... which might be to my liking.


I can't put an image up here for some reason... but picture the world thus: (former) Korea to the north of Persia, Zululand to the South. Across a mountainous ithsmus from Korea, to the East, is Babylon, surrounded on the North and East by Arabia, on the East by Turkey, and on the South by India. The rest of the world is unknown and hopefully I can pull off some form of Arrian's Deception, though my neighbors are of some merit and hence I might not be able to pull that one off.

Last edited by Yahweh Sabaoth on 07-05-2003 at 20:01

	08-05-2003 14:17									#36
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My recent game as Persian

- I went for Iron Working ASAP
- Built Immortals and wiped out the Babylonians very early on.
- After Map Making did the same with the Americans
- Because of archipelago map, I had a lot of time to REX and develop on the newly aquired land.

If you can build Immortals early, go for a war. You'll probably overrun the enemy, regardles of who you're up against....

	08-05-2003 19:53									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Daz If you can build Immortals early, go for a war. You'll probably overrun the enemy, regardles of who you're up against....

This is definitely true of a small continent, or archipelageo. Especially since you can keep the Immortals around long after feudalism. However, on a larger continent with more neighbors, the immortals might run out of steam after a while. They do pack quite a punch, but they move so slowly.

One thing I haven't tried is conquering a neighbor with Immortals without asking all my other neighbors to declare war as well. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I hadn't gotten them all into a war craze...

	08-05-2003 19:56									#38
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More notes on Persia: cavalry conquest

Waiting around to use cavalry does put Persia in a strong position to bust open a can whup-ass on it's neighbors. But on the other hand, those neighbors are stronger. My advice is, if you can, wipe out the Babylonians early in the game if you can (not necessarily with immortals, though). Later in the game they'll be a real pill... they keep up tech wise, can beat you to wonders you want, and defend themselves surprisingly well!

I managed to take Babylon with it's 10 size-12 cities and 3 wonders (Pyramids, Newton's and JS Bachs) using only cavalry, but I'm in the akward position of having to UTTERLY CRUSH THEM when I'd prefer to move on to the next target, because their culture is so strong that flipping is actually a viable problem.

And though the Babs never launched a worthy counter-assault, they did cream quite a few of my cavs with veteran pikemen, which they had a few of.

Next I'll be able to report on Persia vs. the Ottomans...

	08-05-2003 20:03									#39
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You can take the Babs down with Horsemen in the ancient age. Horsies & Spears.

By the way, one thing I tend to do with the 1-move sword UUs (Legion/Immortal) is to prebuild a bunch, upgrade them, attack, and then not build any more. No replacements. I switch to horsies only, both for mobility and upgrade path. Not that I don't have some horsemen at the start, but it's likely that I have a fairly even split between the sword UU and horsemen at the start of my fighting, but at the end, only a few elite swordie types remain, whilst I have a horde of mounted units.

-Arrian

	08-05-2003 20:24									#40
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My only problem with that approach is blowing your GA too early, but if the horsies'll still do their work in the early medival era, I'm all for it.

And, yes, it's good to get rid of the Babylonians, and if they're near you, quite easy too. But if they're far from you, it's worthwhile considering declaring a long-distance war and getting THEIR neighbors to pound them, hence crippling them and preventing their superpower status.

But this can backfire of course, as is being discussed in the "Favorite UU" thread I believe.

	10-05-2003 00:21									#41
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Tentative Conclusions on Persia at War

This is not going to be as concise and helpful as I wanted it to be, as my brain in currently in Friday-afternoon-at-the-office-slag...

Having played two games as Persia, using different tactics but under largely the same conditions, I have come to the following conclusions:

1. Use your immortals for conquest if you're on a small, or mid-sized, continent. Go ahead. They're a good unit. Time your attacks to trigger your GA perfectly. If you want the ancient wonders, go ahead and wipe out whoever's nearby. If you want the medival wonders, wait a little while; your immortals will still be good. Especially vulnerable are the Ottomans, whose defense seems insufficient regardless of what era they live 'til.

2. If you intend to conquer your entire continent, wait a bit. Using those immortals will set your development at home back a bit. Not much mind you, as the Persians are industrious and can keep up for the most part, but enough so that if you make too many MAs, you may end up with neighbors (re: future targets) with militaries too beefy for your immortals to bring down.

For your GA, try a combination of wonders. I triggered mine by aggressively trading in the ancient era and building the Great Library and HG first. The timing was perfect, as I then got Sun Tzu's, Sistine's, etc.

3. If you're not going to use your immortals, work on flipping as many border cities as possible. This works great if your neighbors are the Zulu.

4. At either Chivalry or MT, charge! Go ahead, get your war on! But be prepared NOT TO NET as many GLs as you might have had you started warfare in the ancient era. After taking on Korea (mid-small sized), Babylon (large) and the Ottomans (mid), I've gained only 1 GL. Using immortals to take on 5 neighbors before restarting the game, I netted 3 GLs. However, my empire is more advanced using the cavalry charges...

5. If there's one enemy you'll face for sure that's worth removing, it's Babylon. Your other neighbors can easily fall behind the culture/tech/wonder race, but the Babylonians can actually keep up. Furthermore, they defend themselves well. Take them out early, if possible... not necessarily with Immortals, but somehow.

6. Don't destroy the Zulu unless they have something you desparately want. Bring them into MAs with you constantly. Their cities will flip to your Persian empire, and they will be your best friends all the time, while simultaneously clearing the field of worthless enemy units and not capturing a single AI city.

7. You're going to have a hard time pulling off Arrian's Deception as the Persians, unless you really start on a small chunk of land. If you're worried about your reputation, well, play as a builder.

More pompous declarations shall come. In the meantime, tout le monde, let's keep this a thread, not a monologue, eh?