06-05-2003 15:04									#31
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I've only played a few games as the Iriquois, but somehow the MW never seems to work very well for me. Perhaps I have too high expectations for it. Favourtie UU's tha't Ive used (which isn't all of them) are the Samurai, Siphai, and Rider. Jag warriors are fun, but have to be played in a different style to other UUs and of course are an almost total waste of a golden age. Gallic swordsmen are great, but its hard to get enough of them. Immortals are pretty good, and don't really become obsolete until cavalry - a pretty long shelf life. Quite like the panzer too.


Pointless UUs: Man-o-war, F15, war elephant.

	06-05-2003 20:14									#32
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The Immortal does have a long shelf life, but not a long shelf life where they remain very useful. Even the IMPI can outpace the immortal.

	06-05-2003 22:31									#33
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Rider has it all: good attack, defense, retreat capability and the best movement rate until cavalry comes along. Use them to raid deep into enemy territory and steal workers.

	06-05-2003 22:56									#34
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Rider, Immortals, Legionaries. That list takes into account the civ traits.

The Riders mobility and deep penetration just screams blitzkreig.

The Immortals, powered by an industrious road network, means neighbors fall hard and fast (the start with Bronze Working helps a lot).

And the Legionaries, with cheap barracks, mean an all around monster war machine and seemingly leaders galore! I believe I generate more leaders with Legionaries than other attackers, and I believe that this perception stems from the fact that they so often serve as offense and defense, and so enjoy promotions to elite on defense far more often than some of the other UUs available -- seems like I always have a hoard of elite Legionaries whereas with other UUs I have to husband my elites much more carefully in searching for leaders. But, the Legionaries are much more map dependent for me -- my current game as Rome I enjoyed a lot of room to REX and had a decent settler pump; the Legionaries only participated in eliminating one weaker neighbor that didn't have iron for pikes -- if I had had a more robust neighbor that was as far away as I have in this game, the Legionaries would have been a lot less useful in the circumstances.

I feel I'm shortchanging the Mounted Warrior, but I just don't like the trait / UU synergy.

Catt

	06-05-2003 23:22									#35
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The berserk and conquistador are the coolest by far. Great animation and a dog barking too! How can you beat it? Chinese rider is one of the best in terms of use.

	06-05-2003 23:27									#36
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quote: And the Legionaries, with cheap barracks, mean an all around monster war machine and seemingly leaders galore! I believe I generate more leaders with Legionaries than other attackers, and I believe that this perception stems from the fact that they so often serve as offense and defense, and so enjoy promotions to elite on defense far more often than some of the other UUs available -- seems like I always have a hoard of elite Legionaries whereas with other UUs I have to husband my elites much more carefully in searching for leaders.

Funny. I've played the Romans quite a bit lately, and that hasn't been my experience. The AI seems too scared to actually attack my Legionaries in the ancient era, so their extra defense doesn't mean all that much there. Though I did once get a leader from a defending legionary very early in a game once, so sometimes the AI will attack. But in my most successful Roman game, it was my mounted units that produced most of my leaders. I still don't like the swordsman UUs because I think they're a little early, and also because (aside from the Gallic Swordsman, who has other issues) they're slow. Plus, the legionary has an added defense point on an offensive unit, which I'm not too fond of (Samurai is somewhat different, due to their prevention-of-retreat by enemy mounted units). Speaking of Samurai, that's the unit that I find provides me with ungodly numbers of elites (for the same reasons you state you get lots of elite legionaries).

Oddly enough, the most leaders I've gotten in a game was just recently, using a non-militaristic civ (Carthage) and the UU played no part whatsoever. Ah, the fickle RNG It giveth, it taketh away.

-Arrian

	06-05-2003 23:36									#37
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For the record, my first 11-leader game was with Japan, using those unholy Samurai.

I think I'm still with the Rider, but man! those Samurai! Usuable well into the industrial era... mostly because you'll decimate so many enemies that hardly any will make it to the industrial era...

	06-05-2003 23:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Funny. I've played the Romans quite a bit lately, and that hasn't been my experience. The AI seems too scared to actually attack my Legionaries in the ancient era, so their extra defense doesn't mean all that much there.

Really? My legionaries get attacked by archers, swords and horsies all the time. I'll have to watch this more closely next time.

quote: Though I did once get a leader from a defending legionary very early in a game once, so sometimes the AI will attack.

Just to be clear (for others, 'cause I think you got my point) -- it's not the possibility for leaders on defense so much as it is veteran legionaries getting promoted to elite while defending -- I still generate virtually all of my leaders on attacks, but the "survive-ability" of the legionary and the absence of a need to bring along defenders on an expedition seems to mean that I get a bunch of elite promotions faster with Rome. Nothing sweeter than a couple of healtly vet legionaries getting counter-attacked while fortified in a newly conquered city, surviving with only an HP or 2 lost, getting promoted to elite, and then feasting on the injured / retreated enemy just outside the city

The Samurai also benefit from this, as you point out. Their attribute of preventing retreat by fast-movers plus the best defense of the era also means more promotions, in my experience. Paradoxically with the Samurai though, their speed at conquest seems to me to reduce the number of "defense promotions" compared to the Legionary -- the "good" of a quick-moving front sometimes seems a bit offset by the "bad" of moving quickly enough so that the counter-attacks are fewer and farther inbetween. Same thing happens to me a bit with the Rider. The speed seems to reduce the number of engagements overall and unless I deliberately plod along, I will often miss the feast of attacks against "1" defense longbowman that comes with a slower conquest and no access to iron for the enemy. Haven't played Japan in a while -- maybe I'll go off "random" and give them a play.

Catt

	06-05-2003 23:53									#39
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I guess its all in how you use the legionaries.

Personally I rush for iron working, then use Legionaries as my only military unit untill feudalism. ^_^ At which point I switch to pikemen solely so the legions guarding the rear can move to the front.

The trick to getting the AI to attack a city is not to have alot of legions in it. ^_^ It sounds weird, but if you have a stack of 10 in a city of course they won't attack, but when I took over a city with just 2 once, I got a early leader and poof! Forbidden place on another continent. I won that game with space race keeping all my opponents in the industrial age on monarch. It was weird.....

	07-05-2003 00:04									#40
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quote: Just to be clear (for others, 'cause I think you got my point) -- it's not the possibility for leaders on defense so much as it is veteran legionaries getting promoted to elite while defending -- I still generate virtually all of my leaders on attacks, but the "survive-ability" of the legionary and the absence of a need to bring along defenders on an expedition seems to mean that I get a bunch of elite promotions faster with Rome.

Oh, I knew what you meant.

quote: Paradoxically with the Samurai though, their speed at conquest seems to me to reduce the number of "defense promotions" compared to the Legionary -- the "good" of a quick-moving front sometimes seems a bit offset by the "bad" of moving quickly enough so that the counter-attacks are fewer and farther inbetween. Same thing happens to me a bit with the Rider.

This is why I tell people "Take your time. Break things. Slowly. Carefully." I'm not (just) being psychotic. There is method to the madness.

The way I combat the "speed = faster war = less battles = less promotions/leaders" phenomenon is I force myself to allow all of my troops to heal before advancing further. This has 3 effects: 1) I can bring all of my elites to bear in my next attack. 2) While my troops are healing, any piecemeal AI counterattack can be wiped out by my healthy elites. 3) It gives the AI more time to build units for me to kill.

I don't always do it. I surely don't do it if I'm at all concerned with winning the war.

-Arrian

	07-05-2003 00:08									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian This is why I tell people "Take your time. Break things. Slowly. Carefully."

Good ol' "Lazy War" -- even harkening back to Theseus' "Care and Feeding" thread.

EDIT: Also much easier with a religious civ (Samurai ) or a despotic attack (Legionary ) since war weariness concerns are largely nonexistant.

Catt

	07-05-2003 00:11									#42
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I forgot about "Lazy War." Though it isn't actually lazy. It's actually pretty carefully set up to get my elites into as many battles that they are likely to win as possible.

14 leaders as Carthage on a standard map (pre-tanks). The RNG was kind, yes, but I did something right.

Edit: Yes, much easier with a Religious civ (or Despotism). But well-timed oscillation can make it work for a republic too (if said republic has some happiness wonders & access to lots of luxuries).

-Arrian

	07-05-2003 17:30									#43
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I think the Impi deserves a special mention - not for being a super-powerful UU, but for its ...

1. boing-boing elastic defense
2. barb-busting bouncy exploration
3. because it looks cool in yellow
4. unparalled early pillaging fun.
5. cheap barracks
6. er,
7. that's it

	09-05-2003 02:37									#44
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MWs, JWs, Samurai, Riders



JW is my personal favorite, I love having ultra early leads and never mind having early GAs. People get so caught up in "wasting a GA" by having it too soon. If I can trigger a "too early" GA but use it to outproduce 5-6 units and that clinches my rank, I'm happy enough. Besides, Aztecs are the only non exp civ that can build "scouts". And theyre even armed to. What more would you want?

But JWs upgrade path really sucks. Swordsmen is not what I want to upgrade to. Also I hate the fact that its in the a 1 movement offensive unit(guerilla route) tree. The mech inf tree is lot nicer, but I hate having defensive UUs (n.m are just ok at offense so it doesnt really count) So ideal tree is the mounted unit tree which leads me to...

MW for same reason most ppl like
Samurai = I like building these guys instead of musketmen. I dont upgrade pikes until way later and use them as MPs until at least riflemen comes in. I can have an army composed of just one type of unit and actually perform various task with it extremly well for quite some time. Building an army of these guys is always awesome.

Riders - basically faster samurais, less defense on a civ with industrious trait. (or you can ook at it as faster knights with no penalty like most ppl do but eh)

Legion is nice. Its defintely cost effective (n.m costs 30, and so does legion for price of requring iron... its basically a +1 att req iron merc) and is lot better than persian immortal (4v3 when immortal attack VS 3v2 when legion attacks). and can last longer both as attacker and defender IMO. Its even an ultra early UU, which I love, but for same reason that I gave to JW about being one mov unit makes me rank this one low.

Last edited by Zero on 09-05-2003 at 02:48

	09-05-2003 05:32									#45
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quote: I think if we had a poll of most worthless UUs it would be between the F-15, Man O War and Conquistador.

With all due respect, Mr. Zen, have you ever really played with the Conquistador? (I agree with you on the F-15 and the Man-o-War.)

I just tried it, and I think it is an amazing UU. The ability to cut through enemy territory 6 squares at a time (yes, the 1/3 move cost does apply there, too) is unbelievable. I stuck three in an army, and the AI didn't attack it, even though the world had progressed all the way to Infantry by that time.

I penetrated to the enemy's capital in one turn and captured a stack of workers. Then I pillaged the capital so that it was completely disconnected (oh yeah, in one turn you can pillage, move, pillage with the Conquistador army).

Then I roved all over his country, picking off workers and weak units.

It was DAMN fun! I highly recommend it to anyone.

HH

	09-05-2003 05:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Funny. I've played the Romans quite a bit lately, and that hasn't been my experience. The AI seems too scared to actually attack my Legionaries in the ancient era, so their extra defense doesn't mean all that much there.

No, I believe it's because the AI is too scared to attack ARRIAN.

	12-05-2003 06:03									#48
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* Theseus catching up, as usual...

And I had the same reaction as skywalker... all fear Caesar Arrianus!!

My picks:

Immortal - I've said it forever, 4 attack at IW is just ridiculous.

Samurai - 4 defense in a Knight-level unit, jeezy chreezy... and they are hands down the coolest.

Riders - It's not mentioned much, but 3 tile movement, aside from coming soooo early, has interesting positive effects on the Rider's longevity. 1) Keeping elites once you've started upgrading to Cavs is very very easy to manage, and 2) mixed unit Armies can keep up with the main force... I will NOT add Tanks to these, reserving them for the advent of Modern Armor.

I haven't played with them enough, but I suspect Sipahi and Conquistadors will also become favorites.

All of the above said, however, I'll reiterate a position I've long held. This partially relates to the comments on "Lazy War" from way back when, as my own version of Arrian's "break things slowly and carefully."

My favorite unit?

The most overpowering in the game?

The best bang for the buck? (not just in unit cost but in long-term utility)

The plain old Swordsman.

Much more so (for me) than the Riflemen or Infantry, the Swordsman represent the ground pounders, the dog soldier, the grunt... unlike most of the rest of the game, these guys take the ground, and pretty much hold it.

Give me Swordsmen (and an FP ), and I'll take the world.

	12-05-2003 08:02									#49
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Best UU : Rider
Best normal Unit : cavalry

Does it show my tactic is based on that third movement point
In fact I hardly play the chinese for this very reason in that I think it's almost too strong.

	14-05-2003 21:09									#50
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Samurai

	14-05-2003 22:32									#51
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Am I alone in saying Gallic Swordsman? Sure, it's an expensive upgrade, but 3-2-2 at Iron Working is brutal.

The best normal unit is the Infantry. What else can lock down most conventional warfare for an entire age?

	14-05-2003 23:21									#52
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The GS is a badass little mofo, that's for sure. But its increased cost + GA timing + poor upgrade path lower its appeal (to me).

-Arrian

	14-05-2003 23:55									#53
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The GS joins a large list of other UUs that I don't necessarily care for that much but hate being up against.

	15-05-2003 01:26									#54
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Since I tend to pick a civ and play that for a looong time, I think I have only played the French, Persians, and Babylonians. Based on that, the Immortals are clearly superior.

I guess I like it more than the others because it adds offensive capablity to an offensive unit. The French Musketeer adds offensive capability to a defensive unit and the Babylonian Bowman adds defense to an offensive unit. I just don't find dual role units as valuable.

	15-05-2003 01:31									#55
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Stonewall,

I suggest you try Egypt, Japan and China for a bit

Fastmovers rock.

-Arrian

	15-05-2003 01:34									#56
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Arrian,

Yea, I think my current game is going to be my last as Babylonians. Actually, Egypt caught my attention from another thead I was reading....Religious & Industrious. Sounds good to me.

	15-05-2003 01:46									#57
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Freakin' awesome trait combo. And once you get the hang of using it, a surprisingly powerful UU.

-Arrian

	15-05-2003 01:59									#58
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That is why I played Babylonians - Religous and Scientific, what better combo for a culture hound like me

	15-05-2003 07:18									#59
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hi ,

some one ought to make a poll , one for UU's and one for regular best unit , .....

have a nice day

	15-05-2003 07:25									#60
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , some one ought to make a poll , one for UU's and one for regular best unit , ..... have a nice day

So why don't you, if you think it's a good idea?

Iroquois have a good fast UU (Mounted Warrior) but I find the Golden Age happens way too early for my taste. I stick with my earlier choice of F-15.