05-05-2003 00:15									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Unless you are building your own the prices aren't that much different. If there is a difference it is that macs are rarely heavily discounted.

An equivalent Dell or Gateway is still much cheaper than a Mac...

quote: And again, there is nothing awkward about it if you can use it properly.

Of course, if you get used to it and "use it properly", it's no longer awkward.

You know why Aqua is awkward? Sherlock is still way better on OS 9. The menu-bar-at-top-thing is counter-intuitive and counter-productive. The dock mixes both programs running and program launching which makes it very confusing to see which is which. The dock's default size and style is oversized and annoying as the buttons go and shrink in size (and therefore, their location changes on the screen) as you mouse-over. There's tons of wasted screen realestate.

quote: One could say the same about a piece of Jap cr@p versus a BMW.

No, the difference being a BMW is rather powerful and generally a great car.

Apple would be like a Ford Focus on sale for $100,000 US.

	05-05-2003 00:16									#62
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory IMO your average Mac handles 3d applications (CAD programs etc..) way better than your average PC. OS 9/x is rock stable compared to windows running intensive applications.

Oh come on. The G4 sucks for CAD programs, it doesn't have the SIMD precision that SSE2 has, nor the regular FPU precision of x87... and the general lack of speed hurts it, badly, as well as the lack of system memory bandwidth. You can't even get a Quadro/FireGL to run on a Mac.

Not to mention that OS X is actually not as stable as Windows Server 2003 or Windows XP SP1, but they're getting there.

	05-05-2003 00:17									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I used to be a Windows user (I still think 3.1 was pretty good) but I got sick of the crashes and the other annoyances. The folks at work gave me a Power PC G3 and I found I worked a lot better on it.

That's changed quite a bit, XP is now a very stable system. I stopped wishing I had a Mac as soon as I installed it.

	05-05-2003 00:21									#64
	Increase Your PM Length

You look at the hardware too much, Asher. Apple is obviously behind in this area; no one disagrees with you on this. The software area is where the Mac has the lead on the PC. Outside of games, the Mac competes well with and often surpasses PCs, thanks to all of Apple's wonderful software. If you aren't a gamer and want a stable, powerful OS with a plethora of top-notch programs, the Mac is for you. God forbid some people think that way.

	05-05-2003 00:23									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Windows is a mess, there's cr@p everywhere and that stupid registry causes untold problems, or so my Windows using friends tell me.

At least Windows doesn't suffer from extension conflicts. You run into more problems with those than you do with the registry.

	05-05-2003 00:23									#66
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You look at the hardware too much, Asher. Apple is obviously behind in this area; no one disagrees with you on this. The software area is where the Mac has the lead on the PC. Outside of games, the Mac competes well with and often surpasses PCs, thanks to all of Apple's wonderful software. If you aren't a gamer and want a stable, powerful OS with a plethora of top-notch programs, the Mac is for you. God forbid some people think that way.

The hardware is the computer, the software simply sits between the hardware and the user.

And I still think Apple's software is highly overrated. QuickTime is absolute crap, any Windows user who had to download it will tell you that. iTunes is definitely overrated, etc.

Give me Winamp over iTunes anyday.

	05-05-2003 00:27									#67
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quote: QuickTime is absolute crap, any Windows user who had to download it will tell you that.

Your problem is that you're running it on Windows. QuickTime on Mac is far better, as Apple actually has a decent OS to work with. Don't blame Apple for Windows' shortcomings.

We'll see how iTunes fares on Windows later this year. I doubt it will be as good as the Mac version, yet another reason to ditch MS.

	05-05-2003 00:28									#68
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quote: At least Windows doesn't suffer from extension conflicts. You run into more problems with those than you do with the registry.

Macs don't have extensions anymore. OS X got rid of them.

	05-05-2003 00:28									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Willem At least Windows doesn't suffer from extension conflicts. You run into more problems with those than you do with the registry.

Um - those are a thing of the past. OS X doesn't use them.

	05-05-2003 00:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Your problem is that you're running it on Windows. QuickTime on Mac is far better, as Apple actually has a decent OS to work with. Don't blame Apple for Windows' shortcomings.

QuickTime's crappiness has nothing to do with Windows' "shortcomings" (it's funny that an OS with a far more extensive API and developer freedom has "shortcomings" compared to the rather kludgey Cocoa, etc. of OS X)

	05-05-2003 00:30									#71
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quote: QuickTime's crappiness has nothing to do with Windows' "shortcomings"

Then why is QuickTime awesome on the Mac platform but absolute shite on Windows?

	05-05-2003 00:31									#72
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Asher An equivalent Dell or Gateway is still much cheaper than a Mac...

I wouldn't touch anything from those companies. Give me an IBM.

quote: You know why Aqua is awkward? Sherlock is still way better on OS 9. The menu-bar-at-top-thing is counter-intuitive and counter-productive. The dock mixes both programs running and program launching which makes it very confusing to see which is which. The dock's default size and style is oversized and annoying as the buttons go and shrink in size (and therefore, their location changes on the screen) as you mouse-over. There's tons of wasted screen realestate.

Um - my dock hides until I move to the bottom of the screen to reveal it. You can see which programs are running because they are marked.

No one keeps the default size and style of the dock because it's just for show. I mean, when you install the system it is huge. But it takes a couple of clicks and one drag to fix that permanently.

I like the Dock. It took me a while to get used to it, but I couldn't live without it now.

quote: No, the difference being a BMW is rather powerful and generally a great car.

The difference is style.

	05-05-2003 00:32									#73
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Then why is QuickTime awesome on the Mac platform but absolute shite on Windows?

QuickTime is crappy because:
1) It attempts to hijack control over every media file type, even PNG (which removes control from Internet Explorer, which forces IE to load quicktime to render all PNG images, and QuickTime is ass-slow)
2) It's simply ugly. The menus look like they're Java Swing or something. They have a tendancy to flicker and have weird white-space around them.
3) It's slow, and bloaty.

Those are certainly not Windows problems. I don't know why QuickTime is "awesome" on the Mac and absolute shite on Windows -- maybe Apple has simply incompetent software developers who don't know how to port software? At least MS' Mac software is quality.

	05-05-2003 00:34									#74
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Why is Internet Explorer better on the Mac than on Windows? Why is Office better on the Mac than on Windows? It seems even MS programmers find OS X an easier OS to develop for.

	05-05-2003 00:35									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Why is Internet Explorer better on the Mac than on Windows? Why is Office better on the Mac than on Windows? It seems even MS programmers find OS X an easier OS to develop for.

Office X is prettier but not as functional from my rather limited experience.

And Internet Explorer on the Mac isn't better, it's just a completely different product under the same name.

People mistake that for being better because when Windows IE vulnerabilities come out (since 95% of people use that vs 2% for Apple's IE or whatever), they said "Apple's version isn't affected! It is better!"

It's just used less.

	05-05-2003 00:36									#76
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Alright, I confess - I hate the taskbar and the start menu.

The taskbar in Windows is much more configurable than the one for Mac. I forget what they call it now. By creating shorcuts in folders, I've been able to get every single program on my system on it, so I can launch anything with a single click. With Mac there was only so much room, and it was impossible to organize in a meanigful way. Granted I haven't worked with OS X, so maybe they've made some improvements in that area.

I'll admit though that the Start menu sucks, but I never have to use it anyway so it doesn't matter to me.

	05-05-2003 00:37									#77
	Remove this text

The Windows XP Start Panel is way better than the Start Menu IMO.

But I, too, rarely used it. 99% of the programs I used are so easily launched from the taskbar.

	05-05-2003 00:41									#78
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quote: With Mac there was only so much room, and it was impossible to organize in a meanigful way. Granted I haven't worked with OS X, so maybe they've made some improvements in that area.

They have. The Dock allows you to do all the things you just mentioned, plus it looks cooler than the Windows taskbar.

	05-05-2003 00:45									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten They have. The Dock allows you to do all the things you just mentioned, plus it looks cooler than the Windows taskbar.

I'm quite fond of my Windows taskbar:
http://members.shaw.ca/davemilford/taskbar.png

	05-05-2003 00:45									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Asher QuickTime is absolute crap, any Windows user who had to download it will tell you that.

I agree with you there. It was innovative at one time but has lost ground big time. I don't even think I have it installed on my system anymore, there's simply been no use for it lately. The .mov format for video is almost obsolete IMO.

	05-05-2003 00:47									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Macs don't have extensions anymore. OS X got rid of them.

Good thing. Like I said, I haven't had an opportunity to use OS X yet, I don't know anyone who has it.

PS However, I've had a talk with one of my old instructors from school who seems to think that XP is much more stable than OS X. His program, multimedia production, uses Macs almost exlusively but he uses Windows XP at home and prefers it.

The bottom line for me is that there is much more software/hardware support for Windows than the Mac. I started my computing days with Commodore machines, and never again will I take the chance that my system will become obsolete, or that the company that manufactures it will go belly up. There's no chance of that with a Windows based machine.

	05-05-2003 01:59									#82
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I see you have modded your theme Asher. I could but I've only gone so far as to create nicer icons.

My screen looks like this. All the apps I use frequently are available in the dock and can be controlled via the dock. The others are also accessible thru the dock via a pop up menu.

All my frequent folders are also in the dock. I rarely have to search through the drive looking for stuff. Anything can go in the dock - like the ftp directory.

Odd things like ichat, display resolution and ethernet connection are in the top right hand corner. This is the extent of the "system tray".

Attachment: screen.jpg
This has been downloaded 110 time(s).

	05-05-2003 02:03									#83
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Agathon, what did you do to the .tiff file that Grab gives you to make it displayable here on Poly? I'm guessing you did something in Graphic Converter since you have that open, but I've never been able to figure out the trick.

	05-05-2003 02:41									#84
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I hate macs. Unstable, badly designed, need a ****ing degree to do simple power-user tasks (installing a font, for instance, takes like half an hour of faffing about cross-copying files between folders), bad networking influence, uneconomical, resource-hogging, ugly, one-button mice, overheat really easily, intrusive, feature-bloated (talking error messages? ffs.), expensive, software-deficient, and totally, totally naff. I don't think I've ever seen a set of computers so constantly problematic as the iMacs my student newspaper uses.

	05-05-2003 02:50									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Mac's aren't quite up to par with PC's. Despite Windows sucking, the overall disadvantages don't come close to outweighing the advantages. As for Mac's being better for Imaging, Media editing, etc; well that simply is false. I go to a school that has both Mac and PC computers for use in those areas and the PC's are far more powerful and user friendly. The biggest beef I have with the Mac's is the single button mouse. It makes it more difficult to use such programs. Instead of being able to right click and do things, I have to memorize confusing keystrokes. User friendly indeed. OS is better than XP. Unfortunately, you can't get OS/X on a PC.

hi ,

then why is it that we can run more calculations a sec then a pc , .....

no to mention the fact apple came out with the first 17 inch powerbook , ....

check out the mac section at poly

have a nice day

	05-05-2003 02:51									#86
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed I hate macs. Unstable, badly designed, need a ****ing degree to do simple power-user tasks (installing a font, for instance, takes like half an hour of faffing about cross-copying files between folders), bad networking influence, uneconomical, resource-hogging, ugly, one-button mice, overheat really easily, intrusive, feature-bloated (talking error messages? ffs.), expensive, software-deficient, and totally, totally naff. I don't think I've ever seen a set of computers so constantly problematic as the iMacs my student newspaper uses.

hi ,

ever worked on one in the last years , .......

have a nice day

	05-05-2003 03:31									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Agathon, what did you do to the .tiff file that Grab gives you to make it displayable here on Poly? I'm guessing you did something in Graphic Converter since you have that open, but I've never been able to figure out the trick.

Just save as JPG in Graphic Converter. There is a freeware haxie called Tinkertool that allows you to specify the format of grabbed pictures.

	05-05-2003 03:38									#88
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed I hate macs.

OK - I'm convinced.

quote: Unstable

I've had one kernel panic in 3 years. Massive instability there.

quote: badly designed

Laughable from someone with a beige box on his desk.

quote: need a ****ing degree to do simple power-user tasks (installing a font, for instance, takes like half an hour of faffing about cross-copying files between folders)

Installing a font requires you to drop it in one of the "fonts" folders (either your personal one or the system font folder). You then have to restart apps to use the new font. Installing a new keyboard file is even less difficult.

quote: bad networking influence

I networked a mac the other week in about 10 seconds. No problems at all.

quote: uneconomical

The TOC of macs is very competitive. They tend in my experience to last a lot longer than PCs.

quote: ugly, one-button mice

Ugly, sheesh! I wouldn't want to see your girlfriend.

quote: overheat really easily

Not once.

quote: intrusive

Yeah the imac is hugely intrusive.

quote: feature-bloated (talking error messages? ffs.)

You can turn this off. It's supposed to be for people with disabilities.

quote: expensive

TOC is competitive

quote: software-deficient

I can do all I want to do. And I can run Windows apps if I purchase virtual PC and I can run Linux on it and I can run X11 apps for free.

quote: and totally, totally naff.

Blah blah blah....

quote: I don't think I've ever seen a set of computers so constantly problematic as the iMacs my student newspaper uses.

Let me guess, they are running system 9 or earlier?

	05-05-2003 03:46									#89
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by panag hi , then why is it that we can run more calculations a sec then a pc , .....

This one's easy -- they can't!

Not even close, actually.

	05-05-2003 03:50									#90
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quote: There is a freeware haxie called Tinkertool that allows you to specify the format of grabbed pictures.

I'll have to get that. Thanks.