05-05-2003 13:07									#61
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quote: Why upset group harmony and waste your own time and energy just to be an individual?

Because it is better to think for yourself about EVERYTHING than to be an automaton to society. It what makes 'people' different, we can rationally decide why we want to do something. You can easily have said 'why upset group harmony and waste your own time and energy to be an individual' to people such as Washington and Voltaire and Napoleon and Smith (Adam). Individuals that are willing to upset group harmony and waste their time and effort are those that make life better. They are the ones the define the new morality and they are the ones we treat as heros.

The question is why should I go with the crowd on some aspects? The crowd can bugger off. I think most people are a bunch of morons who have no idea where Afghanistan was before we went in there. I want THEM deciding for me? I think not.

And whether it matters if I came to a reasoned conclusion vs. societal pressure, it does. It matters to me. I ain't simply a cog in the system, boyo .

quote: A fallacy, you know.

Which we all use.

quote: As long as their are some people actually thinking about things at the party level, I don't see what's so wrong with it. We can't all be experts on everything, so you have to spout off the ideas of others as if they're your own from time to time.

Hopefully you actually think about each of the 'experts' arguments before accepting them.

People who 'think at the party level' aren't really thinking critically at all. They back a party and usually stay with it for life, blindly following whoever the party has in charge. The only reason they'll abandon it is if the party goes totally astry from what they've been told the values of the party are. They don't think about each issue individually, they simply accept it from their higher ups. It's absolutely scary.

	05-05-2003 13:08									#62
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quote: Drake, I am agreeing with you too much. I think I became a member of your herd, and lost all of my individuality.

Excellent. Everything is falling into place now.

	05-05-2003 13:24									#63
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quote: Because it is better to think for yourself about EVERYTHING than to be an automaton to society.

Why? That's what I want to know, but you can't seem to come up with an answer.

I won't even go into the impossibility of thinking about absolutely everything as opposed to just accepting societal norms.

quote: It what makes 'people' different, we can rationally decide why we want to do something.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you necessarily should. Sometimes rational thought is appropriate, but it's often a waste of effort.

quote: Individuals that are willing to upset group harmony and waste their time and effort are those that make life better.

They are also the ones who make life worse. Some of the greatest examples of individual initiative and power were tyrants.

quote: They are the ones the define the new morality and they are the ones we treat as heros.

Or demons.

At any rate, I'm not advocating the complete sujugation of individual will to the collective will of society. I'm saying that you should think for yourself some of the the time and go with the flow the rest of the time. Individualism is not inherently superior to collectivism; they both have their place. The trick is figuring out the appropriate course of action in real life.

quote: Hopefully you actually think about each of the 'experts' arguments before accepting them.

For myself, yes. For this paper, no. Just forming a semi-defensible argument and hoping my professor buys it.

	05-05-2003 13:36									#64
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quote: Why? That's what I want to know, but you can't seem to come up with an answer.

Because that is what rational thought is for. If you simply go with the crowd, you aren't using it and what's the point of having it? If society decides everything for you, then why think about anything? It is critical thought that makes us human. The most important thing that each person has is that each of them can think for themselves, and therefore each of them should use that power to the fullest ability.

Furthermore, why does society know what is best for me? I am an individual that knows what is good for me. Society cannot read my mind to know what I need. Why should I turn over decisions to the group when they don't know what I really want?

Perhaps this isn't a good enough explination for you. But that's ok. IMO, I haven't yet had a decent answer to why I should submit to the group (group harmony and time & effort just aren't compelling enough).

quote: Sometimes rational thought is appropriate, but it's often a waste of effort.

I assume you spend most of your days mindlessly watching TV and not thinking about anything, then?

Rational thought is NEVER a waste of effort. We don't expend enough effort on it.

quote: They are also the ones who make life worse. Some of the greatest examples of individual initiative and power were tyrants.

At least they tried. They may have failed in your eyes (succeeded in theirs), but at least they attempted to use their minds and not simply listen to others.

quote: I'm saying that you should think for yourself some of the the time and go with the flow the rest of the time.

When do we do each? You can't simply say the 'trick' is knowing when do use each. If you believe going with societal norms is useful sometimes, then you must define for me when those times are.

	05-05-2003 13:56									#65
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"Does it really matter whether you came to a reasoned conclusion on the value of khaki pants or Eminem in the long run?"

Society, I find, has broad acceptance of differences of opinion. Especially on khakis and Eminem.

Everybody loves Jeans though.

	05-05-2003 14:04									#66
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Agree with the crowd? I realised there is a better answer for it. It's "you don't know". And when you don't know, why just take somebodys opinion as yours? Why? It's no shame in saying you don't know, it's healthy.

Oh, and some guy on apolyton has a sig that says something along these lines: "It's lucky for rulers that men don't think. - Hitler"

I guess that goes as well with the people who "Don't know (don't care)" too but nevertheless

	05-05-2003 14:11									#67
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quote: Because that is what rational thought is for.

How do you know what rational thought is for? Does it even have a purpose? I don't know and I don't think you do either.

Besides, isn't it rational to want to fit into a crowd, have friends and get laid as opposed to being a pissed off loner *****ing about cell phones? Individualism isn't always the rational choice.

quote: If society decides everything for you, then why think about anything?

I'm not advocating letting society decide everything for you. I'm suggesting that there's a happy medium between conformity and individualism.

quote: Why should I turn over decisions to the group when they don't know what I really want?

I never said you should always turn your decision over to the group, only that if you were smart would recognize that letting society make your decisions for you is sometimes the best course of action.

You use the English language, don't you? Just one example of a societal norm that we all follow because it's in our best interests. Linguistic individuals don't get very far in life, I'm afraid.

quote: I assume you spend most of your days mindlessly watching TV and not thinking about anything, then?

When it's appropriate. I don't sit around all day pondering life's mysteries just because I can. I'd rather have a little fun.

quote: Rational thought is NEVER a waste of effort. We don't expend enough effort on it.

What about that discussion about how Superman can knock Lois Lane up? Or those debates about which superheroes would win in a fight? I can't help but think that all the time and effort devoted to those rational debates might be better spent putting on a pair of khakis, heading to a club and losing one's virginity.

quote: At least they tried. They may have failed in your eyes (succeeded in theirs), but at least they attempted to use their minds and not simply listen to others.

Yeah for Hitler. I'm glad he didn't listen when society told him mass genocide was wrong; a real triumph of the human spirit.

quote: When do we do each? You can't simply say the 'trick' is knowing when do use each. If you believe going with societal norms is useful sometimes, then you must define for me when those times are.

You want me to explain how the world works?

I don't know and would never be so arrogant as to claim that I did. Every situation has different circumstances and must be approached in a different way. Some call for individuality, some for conformity, some for a little of both. Sometimes the best course of action is obvious, and sometimes you have to go with your gut. It's complex and unpredictable, but that's life.

	05-05-2003 14:25									#68
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quote: What about that discussion about how Superman can knock Lois Lane up? Or those debates about which superheroes would win in a fight? I can't help but think that all the time and effort devoted to those rational debates might be better spent putting on a pair of khakis, heading to a club and losing one's virginity.

As you see, I am rallying for drake here, being too lazy to actually participate in the debate.

	05-05-2003 14:32									#69
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quote: As you see, I am rallying for drake here, being too lazy to actually participate in the debate.

You're probably going to have to take over soon. I need to get this paper done.

	05-05-2003 14:41									#70
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There may be a gap of a couple of hours, since I'll be heading home very soon.

	05-05-2003 14:48									#71
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Well, I'm out. No offense, but being a part of the crowd at graduation is a little more important to me than this rational debate.

	05-05-2003 14:49									#72
	Put an end to popups!

Not for me I guess. I missed my first 'Air Pollution' class today.

	05-05-2003 20:41									#73
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Individuality is overrated. Especially when touted as a universal vindicator. I'm aspie and therefore not qualified to argue about most people, but I think the desire to be yourself should take second place to the desire to be what you want to be. Social conventions are largely invented for the greater convenience of all. If you must be unique to enjoy your life, welcome to hell. There are six billion other people to differentiate yourself from. Which is not to say that going against the flow is always bad, but rather that individuality is not a social panacea. My two cents.

	05-05-2003 20:47									#74
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Not doing all the things that people do to be accepted by their peers does not make you an individualist. It makes you a nerd.

	05-05-2003 20:53									#75
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I am unique, just like everyone else.

I like to be accepted, everyone does... That is why they associate with certain cliques/groups. Why do ppl like to feel this way? I don't know, don't really care.

It is weird, however, how some ppl resist this conformity more than others.

I am so boring and plain that I adapt to, or reflect, whatever situation I am in. It is not really a "I want to try and fit in" attitude, more so of a "I don't really care about anything" attitude "so why would I resist to change, since by doing so I am taking a stance, and lumping myself into a specific group, by default."

However you look at it, by not conforming or by conforming you have been catagorized... So, why not just be yourself and identify yourself based on your present situation?

Catch-22

	05-05-2003 20:54									#76
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quote: Not doing all the things that people do to be accepted by their peers does not make you an individualist. It makes you a nerd.

You just expressed my point of view more effectively in two sentences than I managed in several Berzerker-length posts.

	05-05-2003 21:33									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You just expressed my point of view more effectively in two sentences than I managed in several Berzerker-length posts.

Don't worry, I am just more of a nerd than you.

It is time I revealed my true identity to this board....

*removes glasses and tears off his clothes to reveal his colourful one peice undergarments*

*puts glasses back on*

I am UBERNERD!!

(We really need a supermilie here)

	05-05-2003 22:41									#78
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quote: For the record, there's nothing wrong with most LiveJournals. The ones where people just ***** piss me off, though.

I agree. I've got no problems with them for legitimate use...but a lot of people use them just to ***** for attention, though. Or ***** about someone when they know that person is going to read it. Grow a spine and tell them to their face!

quote: Ummmm no! I remember this as being the only time I've directly responded to you, in fact.

In this thread, yeah...but the last few times I can remember you responding to me, it's been kinda smirkish...especially for a guy who doesn't post here much anyway.

quote: I have no idea where this is coming from. Where I'm coming from is I am reading some tangential ramblings that provide no real insight and are rather hypocritical in their methods. I was annoyed. I'm getting a bit tired of pseudo-intellectualism, especially when it's used to elevate the speaker above others.

Pseudo-intellectualism? I'm making no such claim.

quote: But other than that, I have no problems with you.

Ok.

Drake

quote: Besides, isn't it rational to want to fit into a crowd, have friends and get laid as opposed to being a pissed off loner *****ing about cell phones? Individualism isn't always the rational choice.

It's 'rational', but is it worth it? I say, no. I'd rather be who I am than change who I am to get friends, get laid, or be in a crowd. Besides, I'm an individual and I get those things already. I don't have to change my appearance or opinions in order to fit a category. Why should anyone else?

'Loner'? Where on earth do you get that idea? Just because I'm anti-hive mentality I'm a Loner?

quote: Not doing all the things that people do to be accepted by their peers does not make you an individualist. It makes you a nerd.

I'd rather be a nerd if that's who I am. And I don't purposely not follow trends, I just don't do things on the sole purpose of fitting in with my group or being non-confrontational as far as views/look/tastes/etc.

	06-05-2003 00:35									#79
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quote: However you look at it, by not conforming or by conforming you have been catagorized... So, why not just be yourself and identify yourself based on your present situation?

Just be yourself and don't conform simply because 'everyone is doing it'.

quote: I'm suggesting that there's a happy medium between conformity and individualism.

By conforming in some aspects and not in others? Where is this happy medium? You say you must decide when to conform or not to. So you believe that sometimes individualism is more important than conformity. Why do you believe it is in those circumstances?

quote: What about that discussion about how Superman can knock Lois Lane up? Or those debates about which superheroes would win in a fight? I can't help but think that all the time and effort devoted to those rational debates might be better spent putting on a pair of khakis, heading to a club and losing one's virginity.

I don't like clubs, have already lost my viriginity and don't feel like I have to engage in casual sex simply because everyone says I should. I'd rather discuss which superhero could win in a fight, because I'd have more fun doing so .

	06-05-2003 00:38									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'd rather discuss which superhero could win in a fight, because I'd have more fun doing so .

Batman could kick Superman's arse.

	06-05-2003 00:45									#81
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Only if he has some Kryptonite, DD. Otherwise, I doubt it .

	06-05-2003 01:02									#82
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Yeah, Superman is pretty hard to beat.

What about Batman vs. The Punisher? Now that would be a true DC vs. Marvel show down.

	06-05-2003 01:04									#83
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quote: Just be yourself and don't conform simply because 'everyone is doing it'.

Imran gets it. This is my point in a sentence.

	06-05-2003 01:04									#84
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Batman would destroy the Punisher

	06-05-2003 02:42									#85
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quote: 'Loner'? Where on earth do you get that idea? Just because I'm anti-hive mentality I'm a Loner?

I wasn't talking about you, per se. It was around three in the morning when I posted that and I was pretty much just making characters up at that point based loosely around your original post.

	06-05-2003 02:49									#86
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With an infinite universe, it's highly possible that there are exact genetic replicas of us walking around doing the same thing.

	06-05-2003 03:00									#87
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quote: I wasn't talking about you, per se. It was around three in the morning when I posted that and I was pretty much just making characters up at that point based loosely around your original post.

ok...