05-05-2003 11:30									#31
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quote: why is an extention chord illegal? How is that a right to search his house or even enter it?

Extention cords going from one house to another is usually done when someone is stealing power from one house. Someone else is paying for the electricity. That is a crime.

If the extention cord was in his home, he probably could enter to see what the Hell was going on.

And Ming doesn't know the Supreme Court's rulings on this issue (probable cause) since the 50s (Mapp v. Ohio). Nowadays 'probable cause' simply means 'reasonable suspicion', meaning that if the police officer thought there was any wrongdoing going about, he could enter. And having an extension cord go from one house to another is reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.

No jury or judge would say he entered illegally based on the minimum facts you've given. Your friend has little to no recourse. Sorry, just tell him to pay the fine.

	05-05-2003 12:28									#32
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Well, I just talked to a detective about this "hypothecital" situation. Seems I made a misjudgement (thank god this didn't actually happen to me). A house needs a warrent or permission to be entered. This is different from a car/truck in that evidence can be discarded from a vehical (thus only needing probable cause to search one). My bet in this situation is that the cop mearly made a mistake (like I did) and the charges should be fought, or he got permission to enter the premesis. Once inside, however, arresting the subject on probable cause (like smelling alcohalon his breath) could have happened. The subject could still refuse a breathalizer, but a blood draw by a doctor could have been done (and the subject would have to pay for that if he is found guilty).

Seems Ming might actually know what he is talking about.... who knew?

	05-05-2003 12:32									#33
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I guess though it does depend on state law. Under federal law, this search isn't illegal at all. Remember in Bowers v. Hardwick, the cop just entered after hearing some sexual noises and found two men having sex, and arrested them. This didn't violate probable cause, because he had a reasonable suspicion that two men were engaging in sodomy.

Under federal law, I think the extention cord is enough to satisfy the test, especially because there was probably loud noise coming from the party (which is why the cop was looking around the first place).

	05-05-2003 12:41									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Under federal law, I think the extention cord is enough to satisfy the test, especially because there was probably loud noise coming from the party (which is why the cop was looking around the first place).

I will disagree... First... the extension cord was running from INSIDE the kitchen to the neighbor. Since it was running from inside, there is no probable cause of illegal theft of service. And even if it had come from an outside plug, the theft was by the neighbor, and does not provide probable cause to enter the VICTIMS home without permission or a warrent.

And giving electricity to your neighbor is not a crime. The party (loud noise and drinking) was occuring NEXT door. Using your logic that he was contributing to illegal drinking next door is silly... hell, they could enter the local power plant or the local phone company offices using that logic

	05-05-2003 12:48									#35
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quote: And giving electricity to your neighbor is not a crime.

Actually in many locations it is. You cannot take electricity from one house and use it on another, even if you have permission.

The policeman will simply say that he wanted to ask the person what the Hell he was doing connecting an extention cord to benefit the house next door, where the people were involved in an underage drinking party?

The police have very, very broad powers under 'probable cause', which has all but dissapeared except for the most egregious violations.

	05-05-2003 13:06									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually in many locations it is. You cannot take electricity from one house and use it on another, even if you have permission.

Never heard of that one before... but I'm sure you could probably provide a link to a source, so I won't argue that point.

quote: The policeman will simply say that he wanted to ask the person what the Hell he was doing connecting an extention cord to benefit the house next door, where the people were involved in an underage drinking party?

First... the fact that a party was involved with underage drinking has no relevence to the person giving electiricity. The home owner doesn't necessarily have knowledge of that at all. Again, using that logic, you could enter the offices of the power company... and that wouldn't stand up in court either

Second... Even if it is illegal to give power to a neighbor... that doesn't give the cop the right to enter the home without permission or a warrent. Yes, he could ring the doorbell and discuss it with the homeowner... but without a warrent or permission, he can't enter the home. Nothing in the story would give him probable cause to enter the home.

	05-05-2003 13:12									#37
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quote: the fact that a party was involved with underage drinking has no relevence to the person giving electiricity.

Doesn't matter. Once an officer has a reasonable suspicion of some wrong doing, he can charge people with whatever crime he finds them doing. It doesn't matter if there was relevance to what he originally entered for.

Oh, and I'm also sure a court would find that the kid aided the underage drinking party (ie, he had to know what was going on if he supplied them power), so the officer could go over there.

Anyway, it wouldn't matter, because a court would never say that the cop did an unreasonable search in this situation. To remove all doubt, all the cop has to say is that he reasonably thought the party was going on next door as well because they were linked by the power cord.

	05-05-2003 13:30									#38
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Hell... the cops need a search warrent to enter the home of a suspected drug factory... They would need one here as well.

Two friends talking doesn't give him a reasonable right to assume a party is going on there as well. In addition... The power cord isn't enough to assume the party is going on there as well.

A good lawyer would have it tossed. And you know it

	05-05-2003 13:39									#39
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quote: the cops need a search warrent to enter the home of a suspected drug factory

Not if there are people doing drugs in the parking lot and the door to the factory is open.

quote: A good lawyer would have it tossed

Maybe, but I don't think so.

---

For example the facts in Mapp v. Ohio had two people who were walking back and forth in front of a store. The officer thought they may have been casing the joint in order to rob it (he had no proof that they were). The people walked away, and were presumably going home. The officer followed them, and then told them to stop and searched them. He found a gun in one of the people's coats.

The person was charged with illegal possession of a handgun. He said that that was an unreasonable search because there were no proximate cause. The Supreme Court said it didn't matter, because the police officer had a reasonable suspicion that the guy was going to commit a crime, so he could stop the person.

The 4th Amendment is basically shredded, guys. Police get away with murder (not literally... ok maybe literally, but that's another topic ).

	05-05-2003 13:49									#40
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I think it boils down to the fact that the office was permitted into the house with the cord out of it but it wasn't stated in the report given.

	05-05-2003 14:37									#41
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IF this were all true, and things happened as stated, not only should the guy not be arrested but the police officer should have been disciplined.

As a matter of interest, in the US if a police officer enters your house without a warrant and without probable cause, are you within your rights to shoot him?

	05-05-2003 18:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Not if there are people doing drugs in the parking lot and the door to the factory is open.

Well yeah... if the door is "open" (and that means actually open, not just unlocked)

Nowhere in the story does it say that his door was standing wide open. If it was, I would agree with you.

quote: For example the facts in Mapp v. Ohio had two people who were walking back and forth in front of a store. The officer thought they may have been casing the joint in order to rob it (he had no proof that they were). The people walked away, and were presumably going home. The officer followed them, and then told them to stop and searched them. He found a gun in one of the people's coats.

I agree that the cop in the story you mention had the right to search them. But how is this relevent to the case being discussed. These people were out on the street... Not in the privacy of somebodies home.

Being inside a home offers you far more protection under the law than being out in public. In public, it is assumed you have given up certain rights of privacy.

Just like the police don't need a warrant to search any garbage you have placed on the street for pick up, but do a need a warrent to enter your house without permission.

Again... a good lawyer would have had it tossed in a second. And a great lawyer would have sued the city for police harrassement, and also won.

	05-05-2003 19:18									#43
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I remember once waiting for a friend of mine at the Swiss/French border. I noticed that the border guard never stopped anyone who was white but stopped everyone who was black or arab (didn't notice any orientals). So I started goosestepping backwards and forwards across the border - did it about 20 times before he stopped me, and even then he just asked to see my passport, then waved me through.

	05-05-2003 19:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh As a matter of interest, in the US if a police officer enters your house without a warrant and without probable cause, are you within your rights to shoot him?

Not if you are stupid enough to let them in which appears to have happened.

	05-05-2003 19:31									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Not if you are stupid enough to let them in which appears to have happened.

Hmmm... that's not what happened based on the story...

quote: the cop sees the extension cord going to my kitchen, invites himself in and pulls me out of my room where i am sitting talking to a friend.

A cop entered his home WITHOUT permission or a warrent.

	05-05-2003 19:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Hmmm... that's not what happened based on the story...

It's not wise to base any conclusion on that story. I just assumjed that he's outright lieing.

	05-05-2003 19:37									#47
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I'll grant you that... however, the opening line of the thread states...

quote: According to this testimony, accepting it as 100% fact, has the officer broken a law?

So all my answers have been based on this, since we have no other facts to work with

	05-05-2003 19:47									#48
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While I agree with most of the points that Ming makes, one additional fact must be considered. When the cops showed up and everyone scattered, all the cops would have to say is that they saw someone heading in the general direction of your house. I believe that would provide probable cause.

	05-05-2003 19:59									#49
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That cop got the job done and if the pen pushers in City Hall don't like it, they can sit on this middle finger and...

	05-05-2003 20:01									#50
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Your friend was the one doing the illegal activity orange.

	06-05-2003 02:06									#51
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quote: Originally posted by rah While I agree with most of the points that Ming makes, one additional fact must be considered. When the cops showed up and everyone scattered, all the cops would have to say is that they saw someone heading in the general direction of your house. I believe that would provide probable cause.

Sorry Rah. You cannot enter a house because of probable cause with out a warrent unless you "reasonable suspicion" that someones life is in danger. The cord or even a person scattering from the party into the house do not indicate trhat someone is dead, dieing or going to die.

Now if he heard a gunshot or saw flames, that is a different situation...

	06-05-2003 02:11									#52
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quote: Well yeah... if the door is "open" (and that means actually open, not just unlocked) Nowhere in the story does it say that his door was standing wide open. If it was, I would agree with you.

I assumed the door was wide open. At the very least to let the cord out.

I guess the main problem is that we are ALL making assumptions about the scene and the event because we don't have all the facts. We would need more facts to know for sure.

Yeah, if the door was closed and the officer didn't see anyone inside, he wouldn't be able to go in, but I assume that the door was open and there were some people in the guy's house.

quote: You cannot enter a house because of probable cause with out a warrent unless you "reasonable suspicion" that someones life is in danger.

No, its simply 'reasonable suspicion' a crime is in the process of being comiitted. Life has nothing to do with it.

	06-05-2003 02:17									#53
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try it and see...

	06-05-2003 02:23									#54
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The cop was in the wrong if he wasn't let in... period.

I have no basis for this 'opinion' accept to say that I watch a lot of "Law and Order".

When I was in high school I went on a beer run, stopped at Burger King to get some food. A couple of guys I knew from school were there and they thought it would be funny to take their soda cups out to their car and fill it up with beer and then hang out in BK dinking. The employees thought it was a good idea to call the cops on them. As we were leaving the cops showed up and told me they were going to search my car (packed with beer!). I told them to shove it, and argued with them that they could search the car if they a) got a warrent, or b) got permission from the BK owner, or at least the emplotyees, seeing as I was on their lot. The cops, dumb as they were, finally decided to talk to those who called them. They informed the cops that it was not me, but the other guys who were drinking. They were now head out of the parking lot in their car. Those guys never talked to me again, because they got a minor in possesion, drunk and public, and duis.

Anywho... the point. Cops cannot violate your privacy, or perform test on you without your permission or without suspicion.

I think that the reason this person got the fines is because they acted in a fashion that got them caught. The cord being one, but not the only factor.

	06-05-2003 02:24									#55
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I thought you could enter if you were in the pursuit of a suspect. Underage drinking is a crime and all those that scattered were possible suspects.

	06-05-2003 02:26									#56
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quote: Originally posted by rah I thought you could enter if you were in the pursuit of a suspect. Underage drinking is a crime and all those that scattered were possible suspects.

Under-age drinking at a party, and an extension cord from a house to the house in question. That is reasonable probably cause.

	06-05-2003 02:26									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I guess the main problem is that we are ALL making assumptions about the scene and the event because we don't have all the facts. We would need more facts to know for sure.

Granted... the details are slim.

quote: but I assume that the door was open and there were some people in the guy's house.

Based on his discription... the cop CAME INTO THE BEDROOM where he and a friend were only chatting.

I don't know how he could look in the door (assuming it was open, which I don't) and see ANYTHING that would lead him to believe a crime was being commited, and would give him the right to bust into the bedroom

	06-05-2003 02:27									#58
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I think once he's in the house, all is fair game.

	06-05-2003 02:34									#59
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quote: the cop CAME INTO THE BEDROOM where he and a friend were only chatting.

Bedrooom doors can be open, you know .

He could have been suspicious because of the cord, entered the open door to the house and then saw the open bedroom door, and saw two kids in there and considered them part of the party (or at least one of them being from the party who scattered when he appeared).

	06-05-2003 02:51									#60
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A lot of questionable "ifs" there... and if just one of them isn't true (and unless he comes back and tells us more details) it doesn't work.

Again Imran... I'd take my chances with a good lawyer on this one... It would be TOSSED!