09-05-2003 22:22									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious right.

You don't have to believe my story. However, if Dr. Gary Kildall wasn't away from the office when the IBM team came calling, and if Tim Paterson didn't have QDOS for sale, Mr William Gates III would still be a no-name person. Or rather, Microsoft would still be a lot smaller selling programming languages.

	09-05-2003 22:26									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You don't have to believe my story. However, if Dr. Gary Kildall wasn't away from the office when the IBM team came calling, and if Tim Paterson didn't have QDOS for sale, Mr William Gates III would still be a no-name person. Or rather, Microsoft would still be a lot smaller selling programming languages.

If I didn't believe you, you would have got the rolly eyes.

	09-05-2003 22:29									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel How much does a poor chemist get?

I think about the same as a biologist $35-$40k to start.

	09-05-2003 22:49									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You don't have to believe my story. However, if Dr. Gary Kildall wasn't away from the office when the IBM team came calling, and if Tim Paterson didn't have QDOS for sale, Mr William Gates III would still be a no-name person. Or rather, Microsoft would still be a lot smaller selling programming languages.

Of course, what UR isn't telling you is that Gary Kildall was already a millionaire many times over when IBM came by, and he remained one until his death in the (late?) nineties. Nor is he bothering to mention that Tim Paterson ended up with oodles of MS stock options (which he cashed out in 1998 or 99 (allowing him to retire)), a comfy MS job that allowed him to do what he wanted to, and a nice 6-figure salary for the rest of his working life.

Makes you wanna cry, doesn't it?

	10-05-2003 04:07									#125
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Key point is starting salaries.

I'd love to see how the picture changes later on.

	10-05-2003 05:04									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller it is lucrative (as much so as EE) you don't have to sit behind a desk all day (depends on what you do) Jon Miller

really!? I was seriously thinking about physics, which i really enjoy, but was told that you cant really go anywhere with it unless you have at least a masters but really a PHD. If i can make good money with a BS in physics, please tell me how

	10-05-2003 05:58									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'm amused the Electical Engineers are at the top of the list, yet my close friend, who is an Electrical Engineer, lost his job months ago (with zero warning) and has yet to find a new one. -Arrian

As an electrical engineer myself I can relate to your friend. I was laid off twice, with one of the layoffs a "zero warning" layoff.

If you want to become an electrical engineer just to make a bunch of money forget it. Expect to get laid off every 3-5 years and expect to be unemployed for an average of 4-5 months before finding another job. Then wait to get laid off again. It's the nature of our business. Don't get me wrong, I love what I do, but I am so discouraged at the prospects of my future. I've got to find another means of supporting myself.

As for your friend, Arrian, you should ask him if he has heard of the "WARN" act. Supposedly if enough employees are laid off without warning they are entitled to 6 months salary. I was not able to benefit from this act the last time I got laid off because my former company performed the "zero warning" layoffs in small chunks.

	10-05-2003 08:12									#128
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It is absolutely criminal how little gets paid to nurses. No wonder we have such a critical shortage...

You wanna talk health care crisis in this country? Forget Medicare, forget drug coverage, forget uninsured Americans. If we don't do something to fix this nursing shortage, and fix it quick, we're in for a world of hurt.

	10-05-2003 08:27									#129
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What this doesn't tell you is what their relative salaries are 20 years after graduation.

	10-05-2003 08:33									#130
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Of course, what UR isn't telling you is that Gary Kildall was already a millionaire many times over when IBM came by, and he remained one until his death in the (late?) nineties.

Sure, after all, he got his own private light plane. Though I am not sure how many times over Gary had. After all, the microcomputer market was a lot smaller and software was cheaper.

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Nor is he bothering to mention that Tim Paterson ended up with oodles of MS stock options (which he cashed out in 1998 or 99 (allowing him to retire)), a comfy MS job that allowed him to do what he wanted to, and a nice 6-figure salary for the rest of his working life.

I am not sure how much of this is fact. I know that MS paid Tim Paterson $50K for QDOS, and he got a job with the company. I can't verify the rest, though, particularly the stock option bit. More specifically, a lot of MS employees got paid by stock options instead of real money, I am not sure if Tim Paterson got extra due to the QDOS sale.

But this is irrelevant. I was talking about Mr William Gates III's luck here.

	10-05-2003 09:04									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus getting a crap job at EA, is actually being frikking lucky, or having nice friends... btw what top selling game did he design by the way?

Not so much in this case, although I guess you could consider the luck coming in the form of geography. One of EA's biggest studios is about 15 minutes away from where we grew up. Otherwise, it was a job that was simply advertised in the paper and didn't require any specific qualifications.

The game he designed, BTW, was SledStorm. He also worked on ReBoot and one of the NBA Live games. All console based, IIRC.

	10-05-2003 18:29									#132
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"I am not sure how much of this is fact. I know that MS paid Tim Paterson $50K for QDOS, and he got a job with the company. I can't verify the rest, though, particularly the stock option bit. More specifically, a lot of MS employees got paid by stock options instead of real money, I am not sure if Tim Paterson got extra due to the QDOS sale."

I can verify the rest, right from the man's own words. I've already quoted the passage to you once before within the past couple of months, but when I get home I'll be glad to refresh your (apparently hazy) memory.

Anyway, in it he mocks the urban legend that has him broke and forgotten, trampled over by the evil that is BG #3. He notes the following:

1. He or his company could not have made QDOS anywhere near the product that MS did, nor would they have even had a chance to present it to IBM.
2. He made millions with MS stock options, allowing him to retire in 1998-99.
3. He went to work for MS right after to help with the DOS development, and then did quite a number of different things around the company until he decided to retire. IIRC, I think he allowed as to how he kind of had free rein to work on whatever he wanted to work on.
4. And he was well paid in the process.

Last edited by JohnT on 10-05-2003 at 18:46

	10-05-2003 19:31									#133
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT 1. He or his company could not have made QDOS anywhere near the product that MS did, nor would they have even had a chance to present it to IBM. 2. He made millions with MS stock options, allowing him to retire in 1998-99. 3. He went to work for MS right after to help with the DOS development, and then did quite a number of different things around the company until he decided to retire. IIRC, I think he allowed as to how he kind of had free rein to work on whatever he wanted to work on. 4. And he was well paid in the process.

1. Of course not, nobody else would have the balls to show a pirated program to IBM and claimed it to be his own.

2. As I said, it is unclear whether this was due to the QDOS sale or being an employee at MS.

3. Not surprisingly, MS was just a tiny outfit back then.

4. By stock options. See 2.

	10-05-2003 21:29									#134
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Bah, who needs that much money.

	10-05-2003 21:32									#135
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Well, you could start up a fund that supports environmental movement, for example.

	10-05-2003 23:26									#136
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1. It wasn't pirated.

2. It was due to being an employee, as MS didn't go public until 1986. Otoh, he got the job because of QDOS, so one can rationally argue that he got the options because of the sale.

3. If you consider 30 people tiny (By IBM standards, yes, by the standards of 90% of American businesses, no).

	11-05-2003 01:31									#137
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John, don't worry, UR is just on one of his anti-MS moments .

	11-05-2003 01:41									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Frogman You are right to say poor chemist. Chemists just aren't as marketable as Chemical Engineers and typically start about 15% lower. I still say that sales is a good area to consider if you don't like being behind a desk. Most big companies have salaried sales positions and your calling on professional purchasing people. Everything has to be sold by somebody and most chemical companies or companies with technical products would rather teach sales techniques to technical people rather than teach technical information to business majors. Coming out of school, getting a sales job will get you lots of contacts at different companies and is a great way to see whats really out there. Don't believe that there is one "sales type", all you need is honesty, reliability and some knowledge about what your selling.

I could go and learn chemical engineering, but I found it boring.
I was interested more in a research career, that in a bussiness career, to be honest.

But if I have to go the bussiness way, I guess I'd go pretty much the way you said. There are lots of jobs for chemists here, while the management BAs work as clerks.

	11-05-2003 12:49									#139
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Can someone tell me how much actuaries really make? I've found some stats but im not sure their right, people have told me they make a lot more... And which colleges have the best math departments?

	11-05-2003 20:14									#140
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Have you tried Salary.com? According to them, an Actuary I makes about $49,000 in Jersey City, NJ.

An Actuary V (there are five levels of Actuary positions, if that makes any sense) makes about $106,000 in the same city.

	11-05-2003 22:23									#141
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT 1. It wasn't pirated.

It was a rip-off of CP/M.

	11-05-2003 22:25									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Akron Can someone tell me how much actuaries really make? I've found some stats but im not sure their right, people have told me they make a lot more... And which colleges have the best math departments?

At some schools the same department that offers accounting also offers actuary degrees.

	12-05-2003 04:02									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It was a rip-off of CP/M.

Given your support of open standards, this is a mighty odd objection.

	12-05-2003 07:29									#144
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Given your support of open standards, this is a mighty odd objection.

QDOS contained loads of copied code from CP/M.