09-05-2003 18:40									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

There's a big difference between murder and smoking pot. Many could argue that smoking pot is not as bad as drinking... which is legal

	09-05-2003 18:42									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I get the "Sundance" channel, and the other night it was playing "Grass" which was narrated by Woody Harrelson and was all about the criminalization of pot in the U.S. Hilarious stuff put forth by the government before they did any real studies on it. They just made scary stuff up about it. "It will make you go insane! It's horribly addictive!"

-Arrian

	09-05-2003 18:44									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Or at least ingesting pot (eating it, drinking tea made with it). Smoking is harmful to your lungs, and those of anyone who inhales the secondhand smoke. But if you eat/drink it instead of smoking it, I don't think a very convincing arguement can be made that Pot is worse than booze.

-Arrian

	09-05-2003 18:51									#34
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by yavoon there's "futility" in lots of laws. heroine, murder, child abuse, etc...do u think the way to solve these is to decriminalise them? u just need to giveup on the futility of enforcement thing. cuz when someone thinks something should be illegal they aren't gna be like well "since ppl do it neway" I guess I"ll make it legal.

Let me guess: when people use the phrase "cost-benefit analysis," you assume they're speaking Swahili or something, don't you?

If not, can you possibly make an argument that the damage marijuana does outweighs the massive cost of policing pot use? (Remember, this is not just the cost of busting users and dealers, but also the cost of incarcerating people for years -- at tens of thousands of dollers per person -- and the cost of providing military and financial support to other nations for the purpose of policing pot.)

Bonus points if you can make such an argument about pot AND explain why alcohol shouldn't be treated the same way.

Otherwise, why not just admit that you don't think things through much, and move along?

	09-05-2003 18:56									#35
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly If not, can you possibly make an argument that the damage marijuana does outweighs the massive cost of policing pot use? (Remember, this is not just the cost of busting users and dealers, but also the cost of incarcerating people for years -- at tens of thousands of dollers per person -- and the cost of providing military and financial support to other nations for the purpose of policing pot.)

And that's not to mention the increased public revenue that would be gained instead, if pot was legal and taxed like alcohol and tobacco.

PS If governments stopped wasting resources trying to stop it, and taxed it instead, they could easily lower income taxes a notch or two. Now wouldn't that do wonders for the American economy these days?

	09-05-2003 20:13									#36
	Inflate your Upload Space

If it was legal, Willem, you wouldn't be able to make a living in the last few years.

	09-05-2003 20:18									#37
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Azazel If it was legal, Willem, you wouldn't be able to make a living in the last few years.

There's still independant wine makers, and micro breweries. If I had a good product, which I did, there's no reason why I couldn't have done the same sort of thing. Granted the profit margins would probably have been lower overall, but on the other hand I could have had a larger operation if I didn't have to hide everything and look as inconspicous as possible.

PS And I'd still be in business since I wouldn't have had to dismantle my operation because of a stupid car accident.

	09-05-2003 20:31									#38
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by MikeH Yeah, very true. I'd like to see it's sale moved to licensed premises to get kids away from dealers. Probably can't be legalised but could go along the Dutch model. US is a problem though.

Add Belgium to the list, possesion is no longer illegal although you're still not allowed to smoke it in public.
Overall it's a very confusing law due to many consessions that had to be made in order to get the law passed.

	09-05-2003 20:41									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Azazel If it was legal, Willem, you wouldn't be able to make a living in the last few years.

Besides, by the time the government got their share of the taxes, the retail price would probably be about the same as it is now. And I could easily have undercut their prices to a few select customers. I would have made a little less money per ounce, but not much.

PS About the only people legalization would put out of business would be the middlemen and the small time dealers, the ones who are quite often selling cocaine and other more harmful substances as well. Growers might see a certain loss of income but they'd still be able to make a few dollars from it. The operating overhead is very low.

	09-05-2003 21:04									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ming, Rah, I don't know if you guys remember the show "In the Heat of the Night"... but I recently saw an old episode where the Chief made a comment about the drug war citing, "Prohibition didn't work, how can they expect us to stop this drug trade when there is the demand for it?". I laughed because this was like 20 years ago.

	09-05-2003 21:09									#41
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Its interesting that in the US, cities can decriminalize marijuana. I went to the University of Michigan and in Ann Arbor, less than an ounce was a $5 fine. Of course no one got fined either so possession was basically legal.

The only problem is that as you go up the supply chain, you eventually have some real criminals involved.

	10-05-2003 00:49									#42
	Get a bigger avatar today!

sorry rufus I dont cost/benefit my morality. and I imagine I'm not alone. mind u I don't care if marijuana is legal or not. just consider me the logic police.

	10-05-2003 01:04									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by yavoon sorry rufus I dont cost/benefit my morality. and I imagine I'm not alone. mind u I don't care if marijuana is legal or not. just consider me the logic police.

You don't cost/benefit morality???

You consider yourself worthy of the title of logic police and not "class A moron"?


Get real. The morality over whether OTHER people smoke weed should not have the least concern to you as it is their decision. First remove the rainforest in your own eye, etc...

	10-05-2003 01:07									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by yavoon sorry rufus I dont cost/benefit my morality. and I imagine I'm not alone. mind u I don't care if marijuana is legal or not. just consider me the logic police.

I'd hardly say that agreeing with the prohibiton of a substance that is no more and probably less harmful than either alcohol and tobacco to be logical. Especially when that prohibition is costing taxpayers all over the world billions of dollars to enforce when it clearly is unenforcable.

Frankly your whole position isn't logical. On one hand you compare legalization of marijuana to murder, then you say you don't care one way or another. Just what exactly do you believe in, or are you only hoping on getting a little attention?

	10-05-2003 01:14									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

weed should be legal because the consumption of it does not hurt anyone else.

	10-05-2003 01:16									#46
	Got spare money?

quote: If we would just kill the ppl we are suppose to we'd have enough room to fit all the rest...

	10-05-2003 01:16									#47
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i hope some day you are falsely convicted of a capital crime in the state of Texas.

	10-05-2003 01:19									#48
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

yah well willem alcohol isnt legal cuz its cough drops. so to say that weed should be legal because its less harmful when alcohol legality isnt based on its harm.
is tenuous.

and I only brought up murder to introduce a point, which I then stated. if u have someone who finds something should be immoral/illegal(regardless of how "wrong" u think that postition is). he's not going to want it decriminalised just because other ppl do it. and infact the very idea is laffable. so now I've stated it twice.

u seem blinded by ur fervor to flame me instead of ne logical progression.

	10-05-2003 01:40									#49
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by yavoon yah well willem alcohol isnt legal cuz its cough drops. so to say that weed should be legal because its less harmful when alcohol legality isnt based on its harm. is tenuous. and I only brought up murder to introduce a point, which I then stated. if u have someone who finds something should be immoral/illegal(regardless of how "wrong" u think that postition is). he's not going to want it decriminalised just because other ppl do it. and infact the very idea is laffable. so now I've stated it twice. u seem blinded by ur fervor to flame me instead of ne logical progression.

I've been trying to find something in that post that makes sense, but it seems to have eluded me.

Are you saying that alcohol isn't legal? What's this bit about cough drops? And yes, I realize that there is a minority of morally blind people that object to anything that gives other people some pleasure. What does that prove?

And I'm not trying to flame you, I'm merely trying to point out the illogic of your position. Your talking out of both sides of your mouth at once and not making any sense in the process.

PS On what basis should we maintain this prohibition of marijuana? Why bother with all the time and money if it can't be stopped anyway, and since it doesn't really hurt anybody? I've offered up a few reasons not to, let's hear some reasons why we should?

	10-05-2003 01:50									#50
	Support Apolyton

I never supported marijuana prohibition. which I have already said. I merely said u rnt going to convince ppl to make it legal cuz lotsa ppl do it. Imagine for a thot exercise that for wutever reason u thot marijuana was wrong and should be illegal. now imagine someone coming up to u and saying "but man ppl smoke anyway!" would u be like "oh well crap lets make it legal then. perhaps not.

I'm sorry u didnt make this connection. I should be much plainer when talking to some ppl. cough drops=very harmless. alcohol isnt legal cuz its harmless.

	10-05-2003 02:03									#51
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

When did we stop laughing about the idiot that told the cops that someone stole his pot?

	10-05-2003 02:04									#52
	Got spare money?

There is no way to make a case for why marijuana smoking is "immoral": the reason it, and other drugs are illegal, are based on the supposed cost of drug addiction on society: the better comparison is not to Murder, but to Seat Belt laws. In essence, the state is saying that the cost to society of allowing the use of hard drugs is so great and damaging that they must be banned, just as the cost of having people ride without seatbelts is greater than the cost of forcing people to wear them.

This is why your "muder" argument is fallacious: the case against Drugs is primarilly one of costs, as Rufus stated, not one of "morality". The "moral" argument about addiction applis just as well to alcohol, gambling, and tabacco, which are generally legal (with a few exceptions for gambling).

	10-05-2003 02:06									#53
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When did we stop laughing about the idiot that told the cops that someone stole his pot?

Beats me. I wish we'd go back to that.

	10-05-2003 02:10									#54
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

He wasn't arrested: there is no schadenfreude here....

	10-05-2003 02:18									#55
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by yavoon alcohol isnt legal cuz its harmless.

No, it's legal because so many people were using it back in the 30's that the authorities decided that it was futile to try and stamp it out, and opted instead to legalize and control it. Hence legal drinking ages, licensed establishments for consumption, impaired driving regulations etc. etc. You have heard of Prohibition haven't you, way back when? It didn't work then, and it's not working now for marijuana, which is even less harmful to people than alcohol.

	10-05-2003 02:22									#56
	Remove this text

first of all the murder thing is not a direct analogy. it was outrageous on purpose(duh?) and infact I've even explained it further. but to go at it again. if u think something SHOULD be illegal, u r not going to be dissuaded by the fact that lots of ppl do it. I certainly wouldn't legalize(insert crime here) just cuz it was rampant!

and I'm pretty libertarian so protecting me from myself is something I will never be in favor of(just to ward off all those psycho ppl who still think I wna keep marijuana illegal). so in that way I am sincerely against all seat belt laws(save infants).

	10-05-2003 02:25									#57
	Increase the size of your Attachments

"Ofcifer.... I had.... like... my sack... but... like... this dude he like.... took it and now like..."

	10-05-2003 02:26									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

to say marijuana "prohibition" is not working on the same level of alcohol prohibition is insane. alcohol consumption is the vast majority of the nation. marijuana consumption is a most definite minority. and probably a small minority at that.

lots of ppl have smoked, very few smoke when they are adults tho. so I'd say that prohibition is actually WORKING.

	10-05-2003 02:29									#59
	Got spare money?

I actually agree with you yavoon on the notion that "people do it" is not justification of any kind for a change in the law.

But I neevr will get libertarians: On the issue of seatbelts: lets say you get into an accident and because you are not wearing a seatbelt, what would have been a situation from which you can walk away now is one in which without emergency care you die. Now, should the state pick up the tab of dragging your ass to a hospital and stiching you together? Or should the medics just come, see that you were stupid enough not to put on your seatbelt, and decide: damn it, the guy's a moron..let him die?

	10-05-2003 02:30									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by yavoon if u think something SHOULD be illegal, u r not going to be dissuaded by the fact that lots of ppl do it. I certainly wouldn't legalize(insert crime here) just cuz it was rampant!

I don't understand your point. I've already mentioned that's just one of the reasons why we should change our laws, there are several. I'm not sure why you're sticking to this narrow track of yours.