10-05-2003 09:10									#61
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People seem to be good at equivocating, but here's the simple fact:

Bush said, without a doubt, Saddam had WoMD.

He even said, without a doubt, we'd find them.

Ergo, if we find none, is Bush a liar?

Yes would seem to be the only possible answer to that question. Funny how many of the folks defending Bush to all ends in this regard went apeshit over someone else lying over a blowjob...

	10-05-2003 10:03									#62
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Well you see the person recieving the blowjob was in the wrong party.

If you're republican it's ok to lie, because being republican mean that you are inherantly more trustworthy.

	10-05-2003 10:07									#63
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So each time you have been wrong about something, you have been lying?
Or is being wrong (assuming, hypothetically, that he was wrong) something different from lying?

	10-05-2003 10:30									#64
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Bush and the admin. said we had solid intelliegcne that showed Saddam had not only the possible ability of a small program, nor even a more significant program, but weaposn ready to use, that very same day: in tony's little report, it went as far as saying that Saddam could use his WMD's and ballistic missiles in under 1 hour, and all this solid evidence was the "proof" that when Iraqis said "we have NO WMD's", they were 'lying', cause we had all this solid evidence that they did.

Now, two things are possible: either the admin. knew this to be false and yet went ahead (this would certainly make Bush a liar), or, the intelligence we had was presented to the president as "proof" by those under him and by the intelligence agencies. That would mean Bush is not a liar, but that people under him either were outright lying, or more likely, manipulating the facts they had, sought out the worst possible scenrios from all they had in their hands, as opposed to the most likely scenerio. What that wouold mean is that our intelliegnce agencies were not doing their job, which is to provide the clearest, most correct picture they can, but instead were being used, (or were being the manipulators) to shape info into politically acceptable answers that could then be used to justify policy. To me, that is just as bad as outright lying, if not worse, because presidents get only 8 years top, but institutions live on.

	10-05-2003 10:48									#65
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Well, there is another possibility. It is that the world is not perfect, and not all is knowable. It is that you look at the evidence at hand, and make a judgment, which may not turn out to be right. It is that political leaders are just people doing work, subject to the same rules of life as the rest of us.

But again, this assumes that President Bush was wrong, which is not at all clear.

	10-05-2003 12:42									#66
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"It is that you look at the evidence at hand"

If only that was how Wolfowitz and company actually operated...

	10-05-2003 15:56									#67
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In the best case, the President of the US did not lie, but he declared to the whole word facts which were not proven beyond any doubt, and made considerable decisions on that basis. This is not what we expect from the greatest power on Earth. And the human failure is a poor excuse when the life and death of people and nations is at stake.

	10-05-2003 17:09									#68
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Yeah... Clinton got blown and now we're getting screwed!

	10-05-2003 17:39									#69
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Wait a sec, wasn't nearly every American war based on some sort of lie or at the very least a gross exaggeration? Why should this war be any different?

	10-05-2003 17:45									#70
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If one follows the money,then it will lead to the cause of the war; in other wars weapons programs were uncovered during occuppation as were mass graves and other atrocities that were very concealed. Why not this one ?The search for said weapons was unquestionably a mission objective; thus if they existed they would have been found ; Lastly and most importantly,if they "the Buschies" would have found any solid evidence of /or actual weapons they would have bugled like Basset hounds but instead they are engaging the slippery slope of capabilty and motivation.
Just because I might have a gun and I don't like you means you have the right to shoot me?especially if you profit from it. right ?I think that using the U.S military to Steal!!!
is a crime against the American people as well as the Arab peoples and "ooops I was mistaken but since we're here let's get rich",just doesn't
morally satisfy.I believe that the best way to save face here is to make sure that the US or its companies don't profit, by making them pay the bill ,if they want to exploit that market.I at this time would also audit the books of
a feiw people in power over here to see what if any windfall profits are being made directly or indirectly by those responsible.If we don't want the Arab people to be a worse threat in the then we need to care more about what they see of us. It's my self appointed job to
distrust all who hunger for power and wealth.

	10-05-2003 17:53									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Wait a sec, wasn't nearly every American war based on some sort of lie or at the very least a gross exaggeration? Why should this war be any different?

Some people wish to bring truth, honor, and integrity into government. Others simply want to profit from it.

	10-05-2003 18:06									#72
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There's plenty more. From September 2002
("Agency disavows report on Iraq arms"):

quote:  In a Sept. 7 news conference with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Mr. Bush said: "I would remind you that when the inspectors first went into Iraq and were denied — finally denied access [in 1998], a report came out of the Atomic — the IAEA that they were six months away from developing a weapon.      "I don't know what more evidence we need," said the president...

Well, for starters, numbnuts, there's the fact that the report you're citing never existed:

quote: The International Atomic Energy Agency says that a report cited by President Bush as evidence that Iraq in 1998 was "six months away" from developing a nuclear weapon does not exist. "There's never been a report like that issued from this agency," Mark Gwozdecky, the IAEA's chief spokesman, said yesterday...

Later the White House tried to say that Bush had been referring to an IAEA report from 1991. Another lie: there was no such IAEA report from 1991.

This was all public knowledge long before the war. I'm sure you all remember the ultra-leftwing American newsmedia harping on it day after day after day.

Of course, part of being a Good Patriot is knowing when you are expected not to look too closely at something. And behaving accordingly.

	10-05-2003 18:08									#73
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I wonder if FoxNews reported that?

	10-05-2003 18:11									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Some people wish to bring truth, honor, and integrity into government.

I know, I was being sarcastic. I wish government could be like that, but only in our dreams. There's no way in hell we'll actually have honest politicians (any that sound honest are just exceptionally good liars), so the only thing we can do is limit the power of the government so that the liars don't do too much damage. Hence, conservatism.

	10-05-2003 18:11									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I wonder if FoxNews reported that?

Why not? The Moonies did.

	10-05-2003 18:16									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 I know, I was being sarcastic. I wish government could be like that, but only in our dreams. There's no way in hell we'll actually have honest politicians (any that sound honest are just exceptionally good liars), so the only thing we can do is limit the power of the government so that the liars don't do too much damage. Hence, conservatism.

Ahh, that's where the Neo-Con's come in. Bush and co. have expanded the power of government and abused it much more than the so-called "big government" Democrats. Bush has done to conservatism what Osama bin Laden has done to Islam, in a sense... hijacked it and convinced the majority of its decent, hard-working, moral people to believe in his cause.

	10-05-2003 18:30									#77
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Iraq is about the size of California, so give the allies a little more time to comb the country. After all, they haven't been able to snag any of the major players either, have they? OTOH I really doubt that the Iraqis had the capability of destroying significant quantities of NBC weapons and eradicating every trace within a matter of the short duration of the war.

	10-05-2003 18:34									#78
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So you are saying we should wait and find out the truth before we take any action? that sounds familiar

	10-05-2003 18:55									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Sava So you are saying we should wait and find out the truth before we take any action? that sounds familiar

Yeah, if such a method didn't apply to Bush & Co., well...what's good for the goose, etc.!

	10-05-2003 18:55									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Sava So you are saying we should wait and find out the truth before we take any action? that sounds familiar

Yes, shockingly, even though my ancestors were instrumental in the invention of "lynching", I say give'em a fair trial before you hang'em.

	10-05-2003 18:56									#81
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Doc, I love you. You are the perfect example of a good, intelligent conservative who listens to reason.

	10-05-2003 19:31									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Doc, I love you. You are the perfect example of a good, intelligent conservative who listens to reason.

Are you sure that I'm a conservative? Maybe I'm just covering up. The local police here make no effort to conceal their surveillance of the internet. Their cover is that they're on the look out for child molestors, but really they're making sure that central Virginia is safe for democracy..... a democracy peopled by fundamentalist republicans, that is.

	10-05-2003 19:34									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Are you sure that I'm a conservative? Maybe I'm just covering up. The local police here make no effort to conceal their surveillance of the internet. Their cover is that they're on the look out for child molestors, but really they're making sure that central Virginia is safe for democracy..... a democracy peopled by fundamentalist republicans, that is.

heh, my apologies, I often chastise others for labeling... what I meant was, your views appear to be more conservative than my own nevertheless, you are an intelligent person whose opinions I respect

	11-05-2003 02:51									#84
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Heil Bush!!! Heil Bush!!

	11-05-2003 10:46									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sava heh, my apologies, I often chastise others for labeling... what I meant was, your views appear to be more conservative than my own nevertheless, you are an intelligent person whose opinions I respect

Meaning, naturally, he is someone who agrees with you on most points.

Oh yeah, he's real "conservative".

	11-05-2003 17:50									#86
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There are no WoMDs - if he had any the capitals of the coalition of the "willing" would have been attacked with them.

	11-05-2003 18:08									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Elden There are no WoMDs - if he had any the capitals of the coalition of the "willing" would have been attacked with them.

Errrr......Have you not noticed the unique competence of the Iraqi military under Saddam Hussein? They would have more likely hit Baghdad or Damascus than any enemy capital city.

	11-05-2003 18:44									#88
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I think he meant the troops.

	11-05-2003 19:04									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Errrr......Have you not noticed the unique competence of the Iraqi military under Saddam Hussein? They would have more likely hit Baghdad or Damascus than any enemy capital city.

The point is they would TRY to use them against the coalition - whatever did get damaged is another matter.

The fact that they didn't use any shows they don't have any.

	11-05-2003 21:49									#90
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Yeah they did nt have any atom bombs ,delivery systems i.e.guidance or launch facilities.Just judging by the size of a missle I find it hard to believe that such a thing could be concealed even in a place the size of California.The infastructure involved in a missle program is expensive,massive in size,and involves a large parts inventory(there would be records of machine parts purchased in bills of lading from some exporter)The more I think about it the more blatant the falsehood becomes.The Iraqis had WOMD if and only if they perpetrated the largest and most meticulouse cover -up in the history of man.The fact that the White House is not yet being investigated is testimony to the power of blind patriotsm,people see what they want to see,it's called denial.