13-05-2003 22:38									#31
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quote: erm, ozone is not smog. Ozone is not a cause for greenhouse, too.

Well, your half right

	13-05-2003 22:51									#32
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Sava, you link has nothing to do with Ozone being a green house effect. It is fully correct though.

ground level Ozone is created with the "help" of NOx (nitro) compunds and Sulfur Dioxide ( secondary pollutants, with NO created as a side effect of combustion of N2 and O2 naturally present in the atmosphere, that burn in the heat of car engines, and, SO2, Sulfur Dioxide created from Sulfur present in Coal and heavy fuels.

This is called "bad ozone", since ozone is a poisonous gaz.

The "good ozone" is the ozone that is located up there. Ozone levels there are high in relation to the levels in the most poluted of cities, and people would die there. This ozone is important, since it shields us from ultraviolet rays.

	13-05-2003 22:52									#33
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Japher: I am not aware of Ozone being a serious cause of greenhouse. If you have any links, please share.

	13-05-2003 22:59									#34
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Ozone is a component of photochemical smog, which is a problem in many cities. In the lower atmosphere (the troposphere), ozone is a powerful greenhouse gas.

	13-05-2003 23:04									#35
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Thank You!

	13-05-2003 23:06									#36
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quote: In the troposphere, ozone is a powerful greenhouse gas.

So, I was wrong... my apologies. Thank you, for both of your time and your link.

	13-05-2003 23:07									#37
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O3 is a good thing if stays where it is suppose to stay. Yet, some of our emissions create this ozone at lower levels letting those O3 depleting compounds shimy on up.

Perhaps this can be a good thing if we can get those compounds that destroy the ozone to begin destroying the bad ozone.

	13-05-2003 23:11									#38
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No it's not. CFCs will eventually go up, and the bastards will stay there up to 50 years, triggering chain reactions of O3 distruction. and we NEED it there. ground level O3 is a minute and a local problem ( I now remember that we covered it in Greenhouse gases. ), it is higly unstable, and will dissolve on it's own.

in case you didn't know, ozone is actually constantly created and destroyed in the upper layers of the atmosphere. It's a dynamic balance.

	13-05-2003 23:12									#39
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ok, the forget it.

	13-05-2003 23:16									#40
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Azazel... you said I was wrong, but then repeated what I said...

	13-05-2003 23:19									#41
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You were right. What I said is that your quote doesn't describe it being a greenhouse gas, and is not a proof of you being right. Japher's link is. I didn't know you were right at the time.

	13-05-2003 23:59									#42
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What you guys have to remember in the aggregate is the earth has been here for 4.5 billion years, we have recorded weather for a little over a hundred, I highly doubt that we or any scientist is really qualified to say what will happen to mother earth if we burn hydrocarbons. The ozone layer like the yearly temperatures flucuate and even for a thousand years there could be a steady decline in ozone protection and then reverse itself for a while. To me looking in the short term is futile, the aggregate is where you can draw real conclusions, and I just don't think we have analyzed enough time.
This polydemerization can recycle anything that is carbon based, all your landfills, except nuclear storage, become extinct, that is a big deal.

Last edited by Defiant on 14-05-2003 at 00:12

	14-05-2003 00:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You were right. What I said is that your quote doesn't describe it being a greenhouse gas, and is not a proof of you being right. Japher's link is. I didn't know you were right at the time.

ah... I wasn't sure exactly what you wanted to see... I got what I could with minimal effort. Remember, I'm a lazy piece of crap.

	14-05-2003 00:09									#44
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actually, I don't think that ozone levels have fluctuated. They've just steadily risen. Once, there was no oxygen. As oxygen levels rose, slowly, the ozone layer formed from oxygen molecules in the high levels of the atmosphere, after interactions with UV light ( yes, ozone is created through UV, as well! only shorter length, more energetic UV rays, that can break up oxygen as well. )

	14-05-2003 00:12									#45
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quote: ah... I wasn't sure exactly what you wanted to see... I got what I could with minimal effort. Remember, I'm a lazy piece of crap.

Ok, then. I needed evidence of O3 being being able to create a significant greenhouse effect.

	14-05-2003 00:15									#46
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this is cool. Humans can come up with all sorts of things that are amazing.

	14-05-2003 00:20									#47
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Sava;

quote: Remember, I'm a lazy piece of crap.

Ditto.

	14-05-2003 02:07									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Seriously, this sounds interesting. sadly, it doesn't tackle the problem of carbon dioxide emmissions.

Actually it does. Oil created from biological material generally contains less pollutants overall when burned than the stuff we pump up from underground.

	14-05-2003 02:13									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sava the ozone layer of the planet traps heat and allows us live... without the ozone layer, the nightime temperature of the Earth would be near zero Kelvin... the ozone effect referred to as the "greenhouse" effect is a microcosm of the large system. The same gases build up over a city, thus... warming it up

The main role of the ozone layer is to block ultraviolet radiation from reaching the surface. It's role as a greenhouse gas is minimal compared to CO2 or Methane.

	14-05-2003 06:31									#50
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Its not just turkey offal, its anything organic, in theory. You could throw in living humans and make oil, but don't suggest that to Bush or he might just do it...

	14-05-2003 06:36									#51
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I think we're getting a little confused here, to put it simply, so us not geekoids can understand it:

Ozone = O3

Ozone In Lower Atmosphere = Smog, and bad to breathe.

Ozone in Upper Atmosphere = UV protection.

Ozone is not really a significant greenhouse gas, even though it is a prinicpal component of smog.

	14-05-2003 06:44									#52
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quote: Oil created from biological material generally contains less pollutants overall when burned than the stuff we pump up from underground.

Source?

Seems to me they said crude oil... It still needs to be cracked to create an energy source.

	14-05-2003 07:10									#53
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quote: this one will accept almost any carbon-based feedstock. If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water. While no one plans to put people into a thermal depolymerization machine, an intimate human creation could become a prime feedstock.

Reminds me of Meat grinder factory in Red alert 2. Put people in and you get some cash!

Evil man who likes to raze cities and kill have more reasons to have fun!

	14-05-2003 11:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Source? Seems to me they said crude oil... It still needs to be cracked to create an energy source.

I can't provide a specific source since I got that information from various TV clips of research being conducted here in Canada. There's a number of groups doing research on bio-fuels here, and every so often their work pops into the news. In these clips it was mentioned that a diesel grade fuel could be created that was cleaner than crude oil, especially when it comes to sulphur emissions, but also less C02 and particulate matter.

	14-05-2003 15:03									#55
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The main advantage of this, as far as CO2 levels are concerned, is that all the CO2 released from burning fossil fuels is carbon that has been locked up for millions of years: you're adding carbon to the biosphere all the time by extracting and burning it.

...Whereas biofuel involves using carbon that's already in the biosphere, was recently extracted from the air by plants, and would be released back anyhow by decay of the waste plant/animal matter. So there is no year-on-year increase in CO2 from using it.

	14-05-2003 16:56									#56
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The more important thing is, that this CO2 would get to the atmosphere eventually, too. ( guess what happens to waste? )

	15-05-2003 11:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If we can turn turkey **** into oil can we turn people **** or cow **** into oil? I ask because every city in the world produces tons and tons of this stuff every day and the government is spending money hand over fist to try and get rid of it. Could this be a money making oppertunity (abet a foul smelling one)?

Considering that Butterball has already sunk more than twenty million dollars into this process, in this economy, I believe someone thinks so.