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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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Then your hardware must be more windows friendly than mine.
However, on all three of my computers, XP ran for no more than 4 days without crashing on me (I take crash to mean a forced reboot... application crashes were far more common... while I could expect no more than perhaps one a week from Linux/BSD).
Over here, I remember reading a MS advert advertising a 16 day uptime for windows XP, just before it was released 
In all fairness, a friend of mine gets about a weeks uptime with Windows 2000 server, before it slows down and dies. Unfortunately, he doesnt want to switch to Linux, because he doesnt understand that running it does not hand control of ones PC over to a band of hackers. Compiled code that has been independently audited for security holes on many occasions by many different programmers, is not handing over control. That would be spyware in certain proprietery systems that will go unnamed.
I find linux to be extraordinarily more powerful! In KDE, with the exception of some games (the games that I play run perfectly well in Wine, (UT, Max Paine etc) and some natively to linux (UT2K3), I find I get much more power than in Windows, I can simply do more stuff.
Sure the sheer number of apps doesnt make it as aesthetic or easy to use (although a little theming sorts that out), but I find that having more system, package and application tools at my disposal means that I can do stuff faster and more efficiently. OSS contains little or no bloat, so my system can concentrate on performing tasks, rather than executing pointless lines of bloat code. IIRC, windows 2000 had upwards of 30 million lines of code, and god knows about XP! 
My optimised Linux system has a tiny fraction of that, a little more in FreeBSD than linux.
The commandline is another aspect that makes linux more powerful...
Burning a CD
Windows: click, click click, reboot, click, click, keyboard, click, click.... 2 minutes
*nix CLI: cdrecord -v -dev=0,0,0 -speed=40 -eject image.iso ... 6 seconds.
Of course, I can further reduce that by spending about a minute writing a script, meaning all I have to type is:
burncd image.iso
To make a CD image, a similar procedure and similar length of time. Of course, I can string the two together to master and write a CD with a few keystrokes.
Catch my drift?
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Inverse Icarus
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flying too low to the ground
May 2001
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Of course all that needs to be learned, but 4 months ago, I had never used BSD or Linux!
Meantime, my mum is still struggling with WinXP on her laptop, after a year after using Mac OS! Learning new ideas takes time, but the reward is well worth it! |
right. theres my problem.
it takes time to learn, and it's often frustrating.
if i was a casual PC user, i might be able to convert after some trial and error, but i'm not, i'm hardcore  .
when i need to do something, i need it done, now. i dont have time to fiddle with it until uit lets me do exactly what i want.
i TRIED converting to linux this fall, i honestly did. i started compiling my compsci projects with g++ or whatever the hell it was, then i had to tar it blah blah blah, and most of it was CLI stuff.
long story short, it took longer than it should have, and i still didnt completely understand it all. also, i dont know why, but it was a ***** about the networked printers on campus. my school uses some weird authencation system, and theres probably a linux way to do it but i didnt have time to find it.
and gaming. god. windows wins hands down.
i know. there are emulators. there are games for linux. i know.
but i have easily over $1000 in games, made for WINDOWS, that don't work in LINUX without hours of tweaking.
oh, not to mention, the first time i tried linux (back in RedHat 5 days) i was told to "write my own ethernet drivers". that sure set me fack a few years.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:28
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elijah: It sounds to me like one of the following is happening:
1) You are simply making up your WinXP and 2000 uptime figures
2) You have extraordinarily bad hardware and/or bad drivers
3) You misconfigured something
Because Windows 2000 and XP have both been extraordinarily stable on every computer and server I've used them on. In fact, XWindows + KDE/Gnome crash more than Windows does.
I also simply don't understand why your friend's Win2K's server would slow down after a week, because I used Windows 2000 and rebooted it about once a month for updates, and I used programs like Visual Studio, 3DSMax, Photoshop, tons of games, etc. rather heavily, and I didn't have any problems with slowdowns or crashing.
And I think my experience is the norm, rather than the exception.
I know how to use Linux, I've got a dual-boot with WinXP and Linux, but I avoid Linux whenever possible. Quite simply, it's uglier, KDE3 is less responsive than WinXP and more buggy, the software selection blows, you need to jump through 100 hoops, sideways while on fire, to do simple things like enable font anti-aliasing (which still sucks in quality) or change the desktop resolution.
Linux is simply not a good desktop OS. BeOS, MacOS, NeXTSTEP, OS/2, etc. are all way better. The only people who insist Linux is the better desktop OSes are those who are obviously incapable of seeing things as they are, but rather how they want them to be...
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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That is of course a fair point. If you want a system that "just works", that gives you a reasonable system with no effort (and you are prepared to accept the consequences) then by all means, windows is the best choice.
I get better performace with a bit of tweaking, and a more customised system. Half an hour to a couple of hours spent changing settings, moulding the system to your hardware will pay dividends.
If you dont want that but dont want the bad stuff with windows, then use Knoppix... it does most of the donkey work of configuration for you (more than winXP install), runs from cd requires no installation. It is a good tool for getting up to speed with linux, one I found very useful. It is probably also the best recovery tool available (the fact that it is linux is incidental), every home with a dvd and cd-rw drive should have a knoppix disk!
I concede that for the moment, windows is superior when it comes to games, of that there can be no doubt. $1000 (thats about £600/700)??? Thats incredible!! I probably have maybe £100 worth. Buy porn instead!
Linux is making strides when it comes to games. Its superior multi-tasking capabilities, as well as better hardware abstraction makes it technologically superior for games, although obviously the industry plays to MS monopoly. Within 2/3 years, expect Linux to be a better gaming platform than Windows.
If you would like to try again with Linux, either download a knoppix cd (http://www.knoppix.net) or buy one from an online retailer (I know its free software, and its still free, you're just paying for the cd, their time and risk in selling it etc). If you need help with that, dont hesitate to PM me, I can point you in the right direction. Linux/BSD is often a different skill to windows, unless you are a mouse pusher who will just use KDE/Gnome, but it is useful to know imo.
While windows "just works", *nix works better
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:28
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quote:
IIRC, windows 2000 had upwards of 30 million lines of code, and god knows about XP!
My optimised Linux system has a tiny fraction of that, a little more in FreeBSD than linux. |
Please tell me you're joking.
The 30M line figure includes:
IE, Explorer.exe, the kernel, shippnig device drivers, IIS, ASP, Windows Calculator (solitaire, etc), tools like System Restore, etcetc.
If you counted the lines of code for all of the equivalent Linux Distro code, it'd be that size or higher.
Hell, Linux distros come on 3-4 CDs now while Windows uses less than one. 
BTW, the Xbox uses Windows 2000, and the OS takes up less than 500KB of RAM total...
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Linux is making strides when it comes to games. |
Like how? IIRC, Loki Games went bankrupt, and it was by far the best movement forward for Linux gaming...
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Its superior multi-tasking capabilities |
How do you figure? Last time I checked, only the latest "beta" 2.5 kernels had decent multitasking performance compared to Windows. Even then, the latencies are higher on Linux 2.5 than Windows XP.
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as well as better hardware abstraction |
Better hardware abstraction?? You have to be kidding me! I had to recompile my kernel so I could get half-functioning audio! Linux's "hardware abstraction" is non-existant for the most part, except for things like SDL, which still are pathetic in comparison to DirectX 9. Not to mention the GDI+ in Windows is faster and better than XWin...
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Within 2/3 years, expect Linux to be a better gaming platform than Windows. |
You're totally out to lunch, man...
quote:
While windows "just works", *nix works better |
The difference for me, is Windows works and *nix doesn't. ARTS is the only sound server that works for me in Linux right now, it doesn't use my USB devices properly (digicam, mp3 player, joystick), the fonts are still hideous, I patch more security glitches weekly on my distro than in Windows, and the lack of apps make it fairly useless.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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Ash: Try to keep this non-personal and rational. On your dual-boot system, switch to a newer distro. You said KDE3. That implies one installed sometime a few months back. Get either Mandrake 9.1, Red Hat 9, or Slackware 9.0 if you are able. Try Knoppix 3.2 if you dont want to install anything. KDE 3.1 will blow you away!
I dont think I have extraordinarily bad hardware, I think it may be slightly faulty (we all know Linux to be more fault-tolerant than windows), or maybe windows doesnt like it. I installed all the specific drivers I could, but I guess there may be some generic thing in Windows that refuses to budge. I know I didnt reconfigure anything. Either way, I get near-perfect performance from Linux/BSD.
As for the win2k server, I tried everything I knew, and everything he knew, little or no joy. The system was a 2Ghz Pentium 4, with 2048 Megs DDRRAM it shouldnt have been performing so lamely.
As for my system, it is a 2.8GHz P4 with 512 megs DDRRAM, it was sluggish and unstable in XP, as I have said, perfectly fine in Linux and BSD.
XFree86 and KDE do still occasionally crash, but those are application crashes, not forced reboots. If X crashes, i type "startx". If windows GUI crashes (because everything is all compiled together and isnt modular), the whole thing goes down.
The package selection can be changed easily. The pkg management tools are superior to windows, even microserfs admit that, so you can easily mod it. However, like I said, if you want something that works out of the box, choose either knoppix or windows. If you want something that works out of the box, and operable with other stuff, with a simple interface that doesnt require synapse use, choose XP.
"And I think my experience is the norm, rather than the exception."
I think my LUG will have something to say about that. I guess with windows and perhaps to a lesser extend *nix, hardware is a lottery. I know *nix to be more fault tolerant, so its safer with *nix.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Ash: Try to keep this non-personal and rational. On your dual-boot system, switch to a newer distro. You said KDE3. That implies one installed sometime a few months back. Get either Mandrake 9.1, Red Hat 9, or Slackware 9.0 if you are able. Try Knoppix 3.2 if you dont want to install anything. KDE 3.1 will blow you away! |
I actually run KDE 3.1, thank you, and I use Libranet (basically it's now Debian Unstable) which is way better than Mandrake 9.1, RedHat 9, and Slackware. I've actually tried those all at various points in their lifetime.
quote:
As for my system, it is a 2.8GHz P4 with 512 megs DDRRAM, it was sluggish and unstable in XP, as I have said, perfectly fine in Linux and BSD. |
I'm sorry man, but you have to try to make this more believable. You really must've f*cked it up if a 2.8GHz P4 with 512MB of DDR was sluggish, let alone unstable.
quote:
XFree86 and KDE do still occasionally crash, but those are application crashes, not forced reboots. If X crashes, i type "startx". If windows GUI crashes (because everything is all compiled together and isnt modular), the whole thing goes down. |
This is patently bullshit, and shows you don't know what you're talking about. If the Windows GUI goes down (Explorer.EXE), it either relaunches automatically or you can do CTRL-ALT-DEL, and launch a new Explorer.EXE. Not only does it launch again without a reboot, but all of your applications you had open are still there.
quote:
The pkg management tools are superior to windows, even microserfs admit that, so you can easily mod it. |
Linux having better package management tools??
Have you ever used RPMs, darling? 
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MattyBoy
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Pekka Fan Club
Jun 2001
time: 15:28
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quote:
The very idea that Windows is not as "powerful" as Linux is extraordinarily laughable.
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I have a UNIX, not linux background and I now use Windows almost solely. Lots of professional development experience in both environments.
I thought Elijah described it beautifully, by explaining the extra effort of getting into linux, but the extra power available to you once you are into the groove. In UNIX, I never came across any spurious limits, no matter how creatively I used its tools. I got past most of the mundane things that I spend time doing repeatedly in Windows. Most applications that I use in Windows have features that look prettier, but prove more limited in the end.
These days I am further from the intense programming and use UNIX less, but I still remember the joy of working within UNIX and I still get plenty of joy from working efficiently with tools like gvim and cvs.
Asher,
I have gotten to the stage where I generally just skip your posts in any thread that mentions Windows vs anything else. Because you come across as so biased, your posts have lost all credibility, no matter how much stuff you dig up to back up your arguments.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"Like how?"
WineX
"How do you figure? Last time I checked, only the latest "beta" 2.5 kernels had decent multitasking performance compared to Windows. Even then, the latencies are higher on Linux 2.5 than Windows XP"
The beta kernels havent sorted out their IP stacks properly yet. Read more stuff. You will see that the 2.4 production series have superior multitasking capabilities, second IIRC, only to 4.4BSD.
" Better hardware abstraction?? You have to be kidding me! I had to recompile my kernel so I could get half-functioning audio! Linux's "hardware abstraction" is non-existant for the most part, except for things like SDL, which still are pathetic in comparison to DirectX 9. Not to mention the GDI+ in Windows is faster and better than XWin.."
I never said it didnt involve effort! The fact that you had to recompile it is good. Means that the binaries were better suited to your box. As for your audio, you should use ALSA, not OSS, IIRC, theyre going to change that with 2.6.x. SDL are totally separate to the kernel in Linux. Run Mesa instead of SDL and openGL anyway. It kicks ****.
What I mean by hardware abstraction is closer to the NetBSD sense. Part of the reason that linux has been ported to so many architectures. It is a part of the kernel that creates a unified "interface" for system calls that then interfaces with the hardware itself. Creates a degree of separation, and of course, with a modular approach, greater stability (althuogh in this a bit more RAM usage). Not bad for 4 months of reading!
Lots of people say that UT runs better in linux than Windows, even in WINE. Linux is a better platform, but mark my words! .
"The difference for me, is Windows works and *nix doesn't. ARTS is the only sound server that works for me in Linux right now, it doesn't use my USB devices properly (digicam, mp3 player, joystick), the fonts are still hideous, I patch more security glitches weekly on my distro than in Windows, and the lack of apps make it fairly useless"
Then you are more likely using a windows sound card, or a lame OSS driver. To activate the USB devices, install hotplug, or better yet, upgrade to a distro that has it (like Mandrake 9.1 or Slackware 9.0). If the fonts are hideous, engage anti-aliasing and install better fonts.
An independent study somewhere (look on linux.com) showed that OSS code has about 0.25 the errors than proprietery code. The bug fixes and updates are released early and often by the linux/bsd community, as opposed to being released by Microsoft who effectivly control their bug-fixes. In linux, when a bug is found, it is fixed pronto, and the fixed released immediately. If you are using a modern package management system like apt-get, then that wont be a problem. If its apt, set up a cron job for an update daily or overnight.
This way, you know you are getting better code, although you dont have to if you dont want to. Personally, I prefer to OSS bug fixing ways, its more open, honest. Contrary to MS propaganda, it is not indicative of poorer code, only better bug-fixing.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"Have you ever used RPMs"
RPM sucks so much arse! APT and DPKG, as well as ports is the way to do!
"CTRL-ALT-DEL, and launch a new Explorer.EXE"
I ran XP pro, and it crashed the system. Simple as that. Im not a microserf, so I dont know if what you say is true, but again, just confirms that my system has small faults, and windows isnt fault-tolerant.
" I'm sorry man, but you have to try to make this more believable"
If the best you can do is accuse me of lying, then I trust you concede the argument. Begone cretin! jk
"I use Libranet"
Dont. Use straight up debian, or a hard-disk installation of Knoppix.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
WineX |
WineX still is rather crap, it works for a very distinct minority of games and isn't free...
quote:
The beta kernels havent sorted out their IP stacks properly yet. Read more stuff. You will see that the 2.4 production series have superior multitasking capabilities, second IIRC, only to 4.4BSD. |
You sound like a marketing machine -- what're you talking about? I want technicalities, why is it superior and what are your sources?
quote:
I never said it didnt involve effort! |
The purpose of hardware abstraction is to eliminate all of the efforts of recompiling your kernel, having code tailored specifically for your hardware, etc. Hell, you even need to configure and use multiple sound engines in Linux...
quote:
The fact that you had to recompile it is good. Means that the binaries were better suited to your box. |
What does this have to do with hardware abstraction? Linux's "customization" abilities is a double-edged sword. It's great if you've got a pathetically underpowered system since you can cut out crap you don't need, but it also leads to inconsistent systems and general usability nightmares and an over-reliance on people to configure every little detail of their systems for things that should just work.
quote:
As for your audio, you should use ALSA, not OSS, IIRC, theyre going to change that with 2.6.x. SDL are totally separate to the kernel in Linux. |
I've tried both -- both work the same way, where only ARTS runs sounds.
quote:
What I mean by hardware abstraction is closer to the NetBSD sense. Part of the reason that linux has been ported to so many architectures. It is a part of the kernel that creates a unified "interface" for system calls that then interfaces with the hardware itself. Creates a degree of separation, and of course, with a modular approach, greater stability (althuogh in this a bit more RAM usage). Not bad for 4 months of reading! |
Maybe you should do more research into the NT architecture. It was designed to be portable and componentized, and in fact Longhorn takes componenetization to the next level, almost to WinCE type levels. There's a reason that Windows was ported to IA-64 before Linux, you know.
quote:
Lots of people say that UT runs better in linux than Windows, even in WINE. Linux is a better platform, but mark my words! . |
Lots of people say Elvis lives too, is this proof?
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Then you are more likely using a windows sound card, or a lame OSS driver. |
SoundBlaster Audigy
quote:
To activate the USB devices, install hotplug, or better yet, upgrade to a distro that has it (like Mandrake 9.1 or Slackware 9.0). If the fonts are hideous, engage anti-aliasing and install better fonts. |
Don't you think I've tried all of this? I've tried a ton of different USB controller modules, device drivers, etc for the USB. And I did engage anti-aliasing and even copied MS' TTF to try to make them better. They're still much uglier than WinXP w/ a calibrated cleartype.
quote:
An independent study somewhere (look on linux.com) showed that OSS code has about 0.25 the errors than proprietery code. |
Independent study on linux.com
Find a link if you cite something, mmkay?
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
I ran XP pro, and it crashed the system. Simple as that. |
No, it's not.
Look, you don't know what you're talking about. If Explorer.EXE crashed, it relaunches or you launch it yourself. If the entire computer crashes, then it's a video display driver issue, not Explorer.EXE.
quote:
If the best you can do is accuse me of lying, then I trust you concede the argument. Begone cretin! jk |
Of course I accuse you of lying, you've done nothing but make vague blanket statements with the odd patently false "fact" and hard-to-believe stories that go against all of my, and people I know's, experiences with Windows. And since you have a penchant for calling people who use Windows "microserfs", why shouldn't I believe you're nothing but a *nix troll with too much time on his hands?
quote:
Dont. Use straight up debian, or a hard-disk installation of Knoppix. |
Oh shush, I've used Linux longer than you have.
Debian's installer is practically coded by 12 year olds, and Knoppix just...blegh.
I use Libranet to install, then I use apt-get to sync with the latest unstable Debian.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:28
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Anyway, while idly looking for multitask performance figures, I found this site: http://thetechnozone.com/comdex/200...ootout-2002.htm
MacOS X vs WinXP vs Linux
Agathon will love the category "Adherence to "Fitts's Law", which rates MacOS X at "very poor" and WinXP at "good".
More fun stuff:
quote:
Although graphics performance is, of course, more strictly related to hardware than software, there is no doubt that the fancy 3-D shadows and alpha-blended eye candy of Mac OS X carries an impact. Indeed, a recent article in Wired News entitled "Why Do New iMacs Surf So Slowly?" notes that the sluggish graphical user interface of OS X makes an $1800 iMac surf the Web more slowly than an older $400 PC running Windows -- and this is tangibly obvious by even the most casual observer. Pages, noted Wired, on average took as least twice as long to be displayed, even on such unmatched platforms. Mac OS X is also slower than Linux at most server-related tasks. Acknowledging the problem, an Apple spokesperson euphemistically stated "We are merely at the beginning of the performance opportunities in Mac OS X."
Most modern graphics cards support 2D and 3D acceleration via X windows drivers under Linux.
Although Microsoft and Apple both attempt to limit the amount of revisions possible to their respective graphical user interfaces, third-party hacks are available for both platforms. XP is considerably ahead here, with a dramatic array of options, including StarDock's WindowBlinds, TGTSoft's Styles XP, and several others. |
And http://www.cnet.com/software/0-4296...69-8-7618644-3:
quote:
CNET's call: Windows XP
Vote: 6-0
Sure, we're impressed that the Mac has come up to speed with features such as full keyboard support, a column or Web view for its folders, support for the right-click, and a customizable interface. But Windows has had all or most of those tools for years. We also find XP's new, task-oriented interface much more intuitive and powerful than Aqua's baffling directory scheme and clunky, annoying Dock. |
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Don't bring me into this. I'll think I'll just stand by and laugh since you already proved yourself ignorant of the simplest application of Fitts' Law, which even I, a lowly philosopher, could understand straight off the bat. |
The problem is, of course, as a lowly philosopher you are aparently incapable of understanding what Fitts' law is, but that didn't stop you from trying to pretend like you did (isn't that what philosophy is all about, pseudo-intellectuals trying to act like they're a whole lot brighter than they actually are?)
quote:
And for the record you'll see that the site you linked to links to asktog.com for an explanation of Fitts' Law. Remember asktog.com? You should, that's the site you said was completely wrong about Fitts' Law. |
I never said it was completely wrong about Fitts' Law, I said his interpretation of it near the end regarding the menu bar position is an incorrect interpretation of it. Which is why this site I just linked to, rather correctly, scored OS X as "very poor" for adherence to Fitts' law. There's a whole lot more to it than that menubar position, which I tried to explain to you, but it's lost on you.
quote:
You know, catching you in contradictions is becoming an entertaining sport. |
You're not catching anyone in contradictions, Agathon, you're simply finding new ways to make an ass out of yourself in whatever topic you reply to.
Would you prefer if I made a new thread and dumb Fitts' Law down for you, explain its scope, then compare its implications in all of the major OS GUIs?
It's quite easy to see why OS X scored "very poor" on it, and XP "good". XP was designed with Fitts' law in mind, the entire time (hence the "ghastly" large buttons in Luna), while OS X was designed to look purty and be flashy. Simple fact, Agathon, simple fact...
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19-05-2003 02:39
Grr 
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