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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:28
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I don't think it is a strawman.
My concern is to have the Arabs stop hating us, because only once they stop, terrorist groups will stop to resurrect form their ashes (for there will be no support for them), and I take a pragmatic approach to that.
If we are to impose our 'good' culture, if we are to impose our worldview etc. on them, they will quickly reject it, like they have done in Iran, and it can only help for them to hate us.
If we are to make peace, and stop appearing as enemies except by precision attacks on terrorist groups, if we help them having a stable economy, etc. we will stop having Arabs supporting the terrorist groups in the first place. And hence, terrorist groups won't regenerate with the same ease.
I'm not all willy-nilly mind you. I favor the neutralization of extremist religious figures before they can have their teachings spread to much, and efore they can have disciples. I favor the overrepresentation of moderate muslims, and making moderate islamism significant seems to me one of the ways of making radical islamism less of a threat (along with more violent approaches).
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
I'm not all willy-nilly mind you. I favor the neutralization of extremist religious figures before they can have their teachings spread to much, and efore they can have disciples. I favor the overrepresentation of moderate muslims, and making moderate islamism significant seems to me one of the ways of making radical islamism less of a threat (along with more violent approaches).
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 By doing so, you're behaving the typical european colonialist way. You're condemning those people to social retardation, ( not that I think that we're perfect, but yes, modern culture is superior to the culture that now is practiced in the arab world ), to stop radical islamic extremists, i.e. satisfying your need in stability, peace and quiet. "No need for reforms here, you're doing just swell, let's keep that oil pumping, Gentlemen!"
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:28
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The typical colonialist European way was the very opposite (at least he French model) : it was to assimilate people, the said objective was to bring "modernity" to the "savages", the Africans had history lessons where the teachers talked about "our ancestors the Gauls" etc. We have seen how the 'modernizing' approach has worked |
That's because it was done in a national framework, and was hardly implemented at all, with the territories being used by the "**** and throw away" system. It should be done in a multinational/international framework.
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I personally think reforms should begin in the Arab world when the Arabs, or at least the Arab elites, push significantly for reform. As long as the Arabs won't want reforms, I say we don't impose it to them. Otherwise, we are just creating even more frustration and hatred.
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The arab society is conservative. A conservative society doesn't want reform BY DEFINITION. Why would the arab elites want reform, if they're the elites already? this is counters and logic. In france, before the revolution, the middleclass wanted reforms, and used the lowerclass uprising, to ascend to power. Why? because they WEREN'T the ruling class, the monarch and the court were. why would the ruling class want reform?
So let's let them abuse women, and kill gay people, that make together around 50-55% of the population. Let the continue in a population boom that would lead to their demise. As long as they're quiet, and don't make any noise and we're fine, everything's dandy!
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I personally think reforms should begin in the Arab world when the Arabs, or at least the Arab elites, push significantly for reform. As long as the Arabs won't want reforms, I say we don't impose it to them. Otherwise, we are just creating even more frustration and hatred.
There is such a push in some countries like in Tunisia and Morocco. Heck, there is even a modernisation of the society in Iran despite it being ruled by fundamentalists. I'm all for helping the populations in this push. I'm all against 'initiating' (read 'imposing') this push. |
Aren't the Saudis allegedly toying with the idea of democratic reform?
The problem is that there are many people in these countries who see innocent trade as an imposition of Western culture. Furthermore, even if American and European products were removed from their stores, there are those who feel that non-Muslim broadcast media are an imposition. Are we supposed to dispose of our own satellites and/or allow Muslim fundamentalist censorship of our own radio and TV?
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Dr Strangelove
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Originally posted by Azazel
a jewish owned restraunt was across the consulate, AFAIK. |
Ah, that could explain it. Were there Jewish establishments near "The Spanish Cafe"?
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Dr Strangelove
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Spain still claims land in North Africa? I didn't know that. Were these areas attacked?
What I was referring to was the bombing of an establishment known as "The Spanish Cafe" during this round of bombings in Morocco. Most of the aother places bombed seem to have had some connctions to Jews. I was asking whether the target of the bombing of this Cafe might have actually been a nearby Jewish business. If not then one might assume that the place was targetted because the bombers knew that Spain had been a member of "The Coalition of the Willing".
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
This whole thing is so sad. What I'm really confussed about is why they would target the Belgian consulate. I mean really didn't Belgium speak up for Iraq yet they still were the first ones to get bombed in Morocco? |
You expect rationality from terrorists? I thought lack of rationality was one of the prerequisites of being a terrorist...
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yaroslav
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Madrid, Spain, Europe
Jun 2001
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
No, but there is Ceuta and Melilla. (spelling? ) |
The spelling is correct, Azazel  . However I haven't hear/watched any news that told me the terror attacks that cost the 41 lives (two of them, spanish lives) where related to any of the two cities. Reason for the attack could be (inmho):
1) To attack any western country
2) To attack a country that supported USA in the last war
3) To have a vengance for the unfortunately affair of Isla Perejil/Leia (the tiny, stupid, unuseful rock we were going to move on war for  )
The Spanish media is not given any information about a jew restaurant, I believe, for the info I've read, that the attack was directed against Spain, nor the jewish restaurant...
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yaroslav
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Madrid, Spain, Europe
Jun 2001
time: 06:28
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Originally posted by Azazel
yaroslav: since we didn't talk to the terrorists themselves, it can be anything. But of course, your newspapers were probably against the war, and now are writing this to say, "aha! told you we shouldn't have supported the US!", or something.  |
It could be, Azazel, in fact I wrote it as the 2nd reason... but I don't believe so. Why? Because the Belgian Consulte has also been attacked.
EDITED: The goverment had deny any bound between the war and the attack. The main party of the oposition has not linked them, but state that
"the war was going to rise the hate towards western world, and with more terror, you get more attack"
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17-05-2003 20:35
That's a strawman, Spiffor. 
I'm not sure what you're alluding to.
Note the two dots in the north.
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