27-05-2003 01:04									#61
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd In my example, Neo does NOT have ANY control over the life or death of humanity. Therefore, the only moral question is whether or not he should go after Trinity.

Yes he does... Neo KNOWS that one door will save humanity and the other will not. Regardless of whether he's the one "pulling the trigger" the machines shoved the responsibility in his shoes.

Let me see... You are locked in an airtight room, but next to the only exit is a button. If you push that button the door will open (ain't it simple) but it will also launch all the world's nuclear weapons (um... but the room's inside a massive bunker so you'll be safe).

Now if the ones that put you in there tell you this will happen, you will be responsible of the billions of deaths if you open the door (and save your own life), even though you didn't create the system.

But if the creators did not tell you it would launch all nuclear weapons, just that it would open the door. Then they would be responsible.

	27-05-2003 05:45									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

LoA,

quote: IF that is true, then why was he gien a choice?

It was more of an appearance of a choice - the machines ultimately had the choice, not Neo.

This might be analagous, too, to the situation of having a choice between the Matrix and Zion, if Zion is simply another Matrix.

Loinburger,

quote: However, the fact that you're only capable of saving one doesn't change the fact that you're choosing to allow the other to die -- it can't be an amoral decision to judge that one person's life is more important than somebody else's. The main question in determining complicity in the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation is one of intent -- why save one person in lieu of the other?

You're saving the only person that you CAN save. Neo can't do jack squat about 6 billion humans - the machines hold their lives in the balance, and ultimately only they can decide whether or not to commit murder.

But Neo CAN save, or at least try to save, Trinity. That's one thing that he personally can control.

Mercator,

quote: Yes he does... Neo KNOWS that one door will save humanity and the other will not. Regardless of whether he's the one "pulling the trigger" the machines shoved the responsibility in his shoes.

That's like a murderer taking two victims and telling you to choose which one lives, and then saying that you are responsible for the death of the one you didn't choose.

Obviously you aren't responsible - the murderer is, and no one else.

quote: Let me see... You are locked in an airtight room, but next to the only exit is a button. If you push that button the door will open (ain't it simple) but it will also launch all the world's nuclear weapons (um... but the room's inside a massive bunker so you'll be safe). Now if the ones that put you in there tell you this will happen, you will be responsible of the billions of deaths if you open the door (and save your own life), even though you didn't create the system.

Why would I be responsible? First, I can't be sure they are lying, and second, I don't have the power to stop the nukes from being launched. Only the person with their finger on the button, so to speak, can stop the nukes. You might claim that choosing not to open the door stops the nukes, but that isn't accurate. The person controlling the nukes made a choice not to launch them - and he can make that choice no matter what I do.

All of you people are missing the vital point - that of personal moral responsibility. You are only responsible for what you yourself do - you are not responsible for what someone else does, no matter how much they try to pawn the responsibility off on you.

	27-05-2003 05:52									#63
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: You're saving the only person that you CAN save.

Neo is given the explicit choice of trying to save the life of Trinity or of saving the lives of 23 people. Go through one door, he (might) save Trinity. Go through the other, he'll save 23 people. He chose Trinity over the 23 people, assuming that he believed that the Architect was telling the truth.

Neo didn't ask for the responsibility, but he had it thrust upon him anyway, and with responsibility comes complicity.

quote: you are not responsible for what someone else does

You are responsible to the extent that you could have prevented somebody else from causing harm.

	27-05-2003 07:01									#64
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why would we believe anything the Architect says?

This is going to kill me... but DD is right