29-05-2003 09:03									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I need to go back to work, and I'll finish the turn when I get back. The current tentative plan is to keep Inchon/Inchoff on schedule using the modifications I posted a couple messages ago. The cats will head for the Sandstorm front, keeping out of Vox's sight. I'm inclined to keep the MedInfs in Arashi for the moment, aside from the units staging for Inchon, and not to go after Arashi 8-9 right now.

If anyone wants to go with something different, speak up. I may be able to get in the discussion a little while my code is compiling.

	29-05-2003 12:30									#32
	Support Apolyton

Nathan's plan to keep Inchon/Inchoff on-schedule: Yea.
Moving the cats to the SS front: Yea.
Not advancing to A98: I'm convinced. Yea.

	29-05-2003 12:51									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I get the feeling that Vox wants to move pikes to the spinebreakers front and then move masses of immortals to Monsoon, covered by pikes. That actually plays well for us, since they're drawing troops away from the Inchon sites.

	29-05-2003 14:27									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Turn and shots sent.

	29-05-2003 14:42									#35
	Put an end to popups!

Hmmm ... bad luck on this turn guys.

I can't see any real benefit to cutting Vox's Iron supply anymore. They'd be able to negotiate a trade with somebody very quickly as it seems like the other teams are all very happy to work against us.

	29-05-2003 14:44									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm glad we took out the Voxian boat- I hope they had troops on that one (though I doubt it...).

Good call on D'ville and A98. Things certainly change now that Vox has Pikes. It doesn't hurt our efforts on Inchon and Inchoff that much- except for our Med Inf. counter-attack potential against pike protected Immortal stack.

On a second though- in the short term, it could actually help us!

What Vox should be doing right now is upgrading spearmen, and producing them. That means they're producing less Immortals, which is just what they need to counter our agressive-defensive tactic. Planting a city to cut their roads thus forcing them to attack us makes us enjoy the benefits of defending, while Vox will have little immediate use for their Pikes...

	29-05-2003 15:03									#37
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Vox needs a harbor before they can get foreign iron, and the production and pop rushing they use for that would undercut their troop production. So even if they can get iron back online and do their upgrading before we can mount a further offensive, we'll hurt them. And there's a chance, especially if they spend too many units counterattacking, that we might be able to get some fast-movers in and play a bit of havoc before Vox can get their iron supply restored.

	29-05-2003 15:32									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree with Nathan's analysis regarding the harbor and the advantage in Vox switching to producing pikes.
Btw, do you think that we can ask ND not to trade iron to Vox while our war continues? (of course, we'll ask only after we've carried out Inchon, in order not to expose our plans)
We can make it sound fair - ND delayed our war efforts by denying us the 200 gold, so in order to repay us and start anew, they will not comply to any requests from Vox to get iron. This will leave Vox with one possible client - RP (since GoW only has one source of iron). I'm not sure how many sources of iron RP has, but if war breaks out on Bob, they will no longer have a coastal trade route with Vox.

	29-05-2003 16:31									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Shiber, you just gave me an inspiration. We could assign two galleys to interdict the coastal trade routes between Vox and all of Bob except Port Isolation. Stopping GoW from setting up a trade route through Port Isolation if they really want to is probably not practical, but the rest can be cut off with two parked galleys.

	29-05-2003 16:58									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Can we though - my experience of similar situations suggests that as long as one of the two civs has a trade route, they can trade. So although we block (abstract) Vox trade ships, RP and ND can still send their trade ships through since we are not at war with them, and so Vox can succesfully trade for iron. Whether this has been changed in PtW / a patch / MP I don't know, but I know I've tried it before and been disappointed in SP.

	29-05-2003 17:10									#41
	Put an end to popups!

Nathan, that's so simple it's brilliant!
Vulture: it will work. All we have to do is to block an all-coastal route. Even if any Bobian ships can get around our blockade by spending one or two movement points in sea tiles and ending in coast, it still won't count as a trade route.

I say we go for it. We'll need some galleys at home to block any Voxian attempts at making any additional landings and to continously send forces to the Inchon sites to keep them alive, so we have to decide how many galleys we want to dedicate to this.

	29-05-2003 17:49									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Has anyone tested this in MP? I know for a fact that this isn't how it used to work in SP, from bitter experience (when it was part of my cunning strategy to block some trade between two civs to muscle in on the luxury deals).

	29-05-2003 20:26									#43
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

From my rather limited experience in SP (having my own trade cut off due to wars), I got the impression that having one civ at war with the blockading civ is enough to cut off trade. But a test sounds like a good idea.

	29-05-2003 20:37									#44
	Tired of ads?

Hmm, wait a sec...
Now that I think about it, during the first Civ3 SPDG, the Germans were trading iron to the Persians through our territory while we were at war with the Persians. We had to cut off one of our own roads to cut Persia's iron supply.
Maybe this was changed in PTW, though...

	29-05-2003 21:30									#45
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hey wait a second.... Lets count for a moment, It has been my experience that the number of resources= number of players+AI. That gives us 6 in this world. After this war we have control of three sources. That leaves three iron tiles between the three other civs.

Also, lets force the trade taking control of the iron. It will prevent warrior upgrading and tax the Voxian system more. It will not alter the outcome. Just extend time.

It will seem arrogant if we try to prevent the trade short of embargo and/or blockade....

Blockade....That is an idea....

Mss

Mss

	29-05-2003 21:36									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Isn't it no of players (including AI) multiplied by some factor, which varies from about 2 for horses down to 1 for Uranium? I know the values lurk in the editor somewhere - but for all except the modern era techs there is an excess of resources around the place normally (subject to random variations and tile availability).

	29-05-2003 21:40									#47
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Also, lets force the trade taking control of the iron. It will prevent warrior upgrading and tax the Voxian system more. It will not alter the outcome. Just extend time.

Vox has friends on Bob that want to hurt us as much as possible and therefore will give Vox iron for free. If they're so willing to help Vox against us, they will also be willing to cut and reinstate the iron trade with Vox to allow them to build warriors and then upgrade.

	29-05-2003 22:50									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In the standard rules, iron and horses have the same appearance factor, which is 160. Does that mean 1.6 iron tiles per player+AI? If so, there are 11 or 12 iron tiles in the map.
Btw, you have to remember that there used to be a 7th civ in the game.

	30-05-2003 05:28									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Shiber ...Btw, you have to remember that there used to be a 7th civ in the game.

Used to be 6, now is 5. that gives us 9-10 iron tiles. I stand educated, stiil we should plan on blockading any harbor Vox has.

Mss

	30-05-2003 13:31									#50
	Suffering from ads?

MSS: GS, ND, GoW, RP, Vox, Lego and Lux (deceased).
I get the impression from the editor that it's 1.6 (rounded upwards, I assume) iron tiles per each civ.
It doesn't matter though, we have a complete map of Bob so we can just check for ourselves. I'll open the save in an hour or so and count how many iron tiles there are on Bob.

	30-05-2003 17:29									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This whole discussion doesn't lead to much: any civ can give his own iron source to Vox, if they have a harbor. After upgrading, they can declare war to reclaim their own source....

Further: I thought that with civ A connected to B, and B to C, A and C couldn't trade if B is at war with either A or C. But, again that doesn't matter for the moment: We don't have a road connection to Vox. Further, we don't have a harbor either. We can't trade with anyone on Bob, and neither can Vox, as long as they don't build a harbor (which they'll likely be building already, they know the risk of being cut off from their iron). I like the plan of blocking their access route, though, that would completely isolate them. And as long as we don't build a harbor, we can safely connect a road to the front, without the need to test anything.

Further: My apologies for not being around lately, it has been extremely busy. And with the latest beautyful weather, my attendance won't improve for at least a few days. But you're doing nicely without me too (although I don't understand the timing of Inchon right now, but that's okay)

It may be a little late, but I had the impression that by building an additional galley after the settler of next turn, we could further divert attention from our Eastern invasion force. I'm not certain, but maybe someone wants to look into that.

cherio,
DeepO

	30-05-2003 18:07									#52
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Further: I thought that with civ A connected to B, and B to C, A and C couldn't trade if B is at war with either A or C.

So did I, until the Civ3 SPDG proved me wrong.
I learned that if A can only trade to C through B and vice versa, and A is at war with B, A and C can still trade through B's territory, but only if C initiates the in-game trade. In other words, if Vox requests a Bobian to send them iron, our blockade won't do us much good without an in-game war against the trading Bobian civ.
Perhaps that was changed in PTW, but I doubt it. This is a basic game principle.

Btw: we have an embassy in The Voice, no? I mean, they have one in our capital, so we should be able to see who they're trading with in the foreign advisor screen... so if we find out that they're trading with one of the Bobians, we can simply declare war against that Bobian civ in-game after our blockade is set and that will be the end of it. Of course, we would have to accompany our in-game declaration with a diplomatic message stating that we are simply doing this to prevent them from trading iron with Vox.