04-06-2003 03:46									#31
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I agree with it to be honest. The skateboarding argument is moot, as the benefits from regular exercise outweigh the potential risks.

People who eat themselves into obesity or smoke 50 cigs a day should not expect to be welcomed with open arms in NHS hospitals. Admittedly the smokers probably pay for the medical costs they incur the nation by the rather large taxes on cigarettes.

I'd go further than this though. I'd start charging people more for their healthcare if they did not make an effort to improve their lifestyle, be it by increasing the amount of exercise they do, or changing their diet.

But then I am a non-smoker with a BMI of 23 and a bodyfat percentage of 10% who exercises for about 30 hours a week (although i do probably drink more than the recommended units per week), so I could feel that when I start paying taxes i will be paying for people that could do more to keep healthy.

	04-06-2003 03:53									#32
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This could be surprisingly popular, judging by the reaction to it so far.

	04-06-2003 05:30									#33
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Refusing necessary medical care is wrong and immoral, no matter whut the circumstances.

	04-06-2003 06:35									#34
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So Bodds, what if medical experts demanded people stop drinking in large amounts if they want to get treated?

	04-06-2003 12:50									#35
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Yes Shi, what if?

	04-06-2003 13:44									#36
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Its a gimmick, In practice clinical decisions are already made on basis of lifestlye and health, obesse people are les likley to get operations because of the risks.

There is a real probelm eith the whole concept. For example a patient is told they ahve terminal lung cancer but is alos told tehy will have 5 years reasonable life with treatment. They decide there gonna have a lugh for their last 5 years and become heavy drinker/smoker and eater is treatment refused.

let doctors decided on the clinical priorities not the politicians

	04-06-2003 13:49									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I don't know about medical oaths internationally, but generally denial of treatment is a breach of medical ethics. The question should be limited for responsibility for costs.

Yes, this is all about cutting costs though, or redirecting the same money to different patients. Doctors here have to make judgements all the time as to whether they can afford to treat someone for something, I'm sure it's the same there.

I was only playing devil's advocate earlier with the skateboarding thing but people seem to have slightly missed the point.

The point was that the skateboarder had continually injured himself again and again until the doctor warned him that he had to stop because it was doing too much damage. It had to be like that otherwise as you've all pointed out it's not a valid comparison with someone who's done themselves long term damage with diet etc.

	04-06-2003 17:32									#38
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I don't think that they should be refused medical treatment, just pay a higher percentage of medical tax.

	04-06-2003 18:00									#39
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quote: I'm agreeing with Bodds. Also, the sheer number of obese related health problems pales in comparison to skateboarding accidents. The former definitely costs society and the people more money.

And how does it relate to all sporting accidents?
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If your skateboarding every day, chances are you will end in hospital sooner or later, knowing that that person shouldn't be treated either.
It's not up to the state what you can and what you can't do with your body and make policies accordinly
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And BTW this is all with prsent knowledge...in 10 year we might discover that chocolate is very good aginst cancer and that sport in fact not as good as we think it is. ( a 10 min daily jog won't do you good anyhow.)

	04-06-2003 22:20									#40
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quote: Vascular degeneration from chronic IV drug abuse is untreatable.

Thanks MtG.

I'm not a doctor, so I had no idea whether it could be treated.

quote: What their families are like, or what either may or may not "contribute to society" doesn't enter into it.

Sorry for jumping to the gun.

Most who argue quality of life try to impute subjective criteria such as contribution to society into the equation of who should be treated. Your example is like, (i'm a small man,) for me to rescue the drowning 4'11'' woman rather than a 6'5'' man.

quote: I don't think that they should be refused medical treatment, just pay a higher percentage of medical tax.

Azazel:

People who are poorer are generally less healthy, often due to the type of work they do. By having them pay more tax, you are hitting them with a double whammy.

	04-06-2003 22:33									#41
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This is one reason why socialized medicine is a bad idea.

	05-06-2003 13:50									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Japher This is one reason why socialized medicine is a bad idea.

Yeah its much better that vast swathes of the popualtion can't get healthcare

	05-06-2003 14:12									#43
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Because they choose not to. People should at least have a choice.

	05-06-2003 14:21									#44
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quote: People who are poorer are generally less healthy, often due to the type of work they do. By having them pay more tax, you are hitting them with a double whammy.

I am talking about keeping a healthy diet, and taking care of themselves. That's not a bad thing to ask. I am trying to prolong their lives, and improve it's quality, for crying out loud!

	05-06-2003 15:30									#45
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Yeah its much better that vast swathes of the popualtion can't get healthcare

Yes, just as your mommy knows best system being discussed here. I prefer you break it, you pay for it. Plus we don't have to wait 6 weeks for a pregnancy test to come back as a friend of mine in England did recently.

	05-06-2003 15:40									#46
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I don't agree with whats being proposed here. I still think a national helath service available to all is the right thing to have.

Why didn't your friend just buy a pregnancy kit.

	05-06-2003 16:14									#47
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Sikander: for shame. Your system is expensive, doesn't serve many people, and contrary to what you say, is NOT better.

Stinger: I, too, think that a NHS is important, but, I think that what I proposed above would stimulate people to leave better lives, not having NHS taking care of these bound-to-happen disasters ( If those would happen, NHS would still treat them, but it wouldn't have to be as bad! )

	05-06-2003 16:15									#48
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"I still think a national helath service available to all is the right thing to have."

Because..?

	05-06-2003 16:45									#49
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What's the alternative? The US system? Great if you are rich.

	05-06-2003 16:53									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's "I still think a national helath service available to all is the right thing to have." Because..?

Because the alternatives are either compulsory medical insurance or lots of poor people not getting medical care.

Liam Fox's latest not so bright idea is for people to get a state handout towards the cost of private treatment. Typical tory scum policy. Those who can afford private anyway will get a government handout. The few who are borderline may slightly reduce waiting lists. The private healthcare companies effectively get government support. So money goes into the private sector (which the tories want everyone to use whether they can really afford it or not), less funding for the NHS means longer waiting list and so it goes on until no NHS and either expensive private care or no care for those who can't/won't pay.

	05-06-2003 17:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I don't agree with whats being proposed here. I still think a national helath service available to all is the right thing to have. Why didn't your friend just buy a pregnancy kit.

She did, but her period just stopped and she wanted to be sure about it.

	05-06-2003 17:46									#52
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Because the alternatives are either compulsory medical insurance or lots of poor people not getting medical care. Liam Fox's latest not so bright idea is for people to get a state handout towards the cost of private treatment. Typical tory scum policy. Those who can afford private anyway will get a government handout. The few who are borderline may slightly reduce waiting lists. The private healthcare companies effectively get government support. So money goes into the private sector (which the tories want everyone to use whether they can really afford it or not), less funding for the NHS means longer waiting list and so it goes on until no NHS and either expensive private care or no care for those who can't/won't pay.

Sounds good. Abolish NHS funding and spread money equally among all citizens to either buy medical insurance or use the money as they wish.

People should have the choice.

	05-06-2003 18:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's People should have the choice.

Choice is fine when it is equal, or at least when everyone gets a reasonably satisfactory option. However people are people and not all are capable of sensible choices, or can afford them.

	05-06-2003 18:28									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander She did, but her period just stopped and she wanted to be sure about it.

The doctor told my wife the over the counter kits were as relaible as anything the hospital could do short of a scan

	05-06-2003 18:33									#55
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Wow...I never realised we had quite so many authoritarians here...

Me and a handful of mates had a little discussion on this earlier this week. Smokers and drinkers are already taxed to a huge extent, often termed "sin taxes" because both alcohol and tabs are looked upon as something worth dissuading people from using in excess. Our conlusion was that a new Lard Tax should be introduced, and applied to pre-prepared food based on grams of fat or something like that. Deep fried Mars bars should be taxed double....

Either that or strip the tax from booze and fags and then apply this idea of witholding treatment, but we were all opposed to that viewing it as distinctly authoritarian, and consequently a Bad Thing.

	05-06-2003 18:47									#56
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There's nothing wrong with fat. It's carbohydrates what cause cause so much obesity, especially refined ones.

	05-06-2003 18:48									#57
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God, first he's been seduced by the BNP now by the Atkins diet.

	05-06-2003 18:49									#58
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Fat can cause heart disease for different reasons though.

	05-06-2003 18:52									#59
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Choice is fine when it is equal, or at least when everyone gets a reasonably satisfactory option. However people are people and not all are capable of sensible choices, or can afford them.

It's not the government's job to tell people what a sensible choice is. otherwise we'd all have government-authorised cafeterias at the end of our street that served us what the government thought was healthy. No food would be purchasable anywhere else.

Freedom is the ability to make choices, be they right or wrong.

	05-06-2003 19:25									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's It's not the government's job to tell people what a sensible choice is. otherwise we'd all have government-authorised cafeterias at the end of our street that served us what the government thought was healthy. No food would be purchasable anywhere else. Freedom is the ability to make choices, be they right or wrong.

Unfortunately if you give an unrestricted choice a proportion of people will do things that a majority consider unacceptable and which are generally illegal in the UK. It is then a small step to limiting peoples choices to exclude options which are harmful to them or others. The trick is stopping before a government goes to far.

I think the UK and EU go a bit too far but not so that I would seriously object. What we have is more palatable than the chaos in parts of Africa, such as DR Congo, where there is effectively no government and people are free to choose who they eat.