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Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
Well, these remarks could be taken out of context. But if they're not, then the world has just become a more dangerous place.


The world became a more dangerous place because of 9/11. That event convinced Americans to listen to guys like this. If anything the world is safer now, because we're getting smarter about what's going on.

GePap is offline GePap
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 00:06
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Somebody better listen to Wolfowitz, given that he is Undersecretary of Defense, the second highest civilian offical in the Pentagon.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Somebody better listen to Wolfowitz, given that he is Undersecretary of Defense, the second highest civilian offical in the Pentagon.


[republican apologist mode]
OH please GePap, Wolfowitz's position isn't one of power. He certainly doesn't represent what Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld think. Wolfowitz represnts a rogue element of this administration, and frankly, we're just glad Saddam is gone. REMEMBER 9-11
[/republican apologist mode]

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
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WOOHOO!!!!

we're not going to bomb nkorea!!!!!!!

that means that i can breathe easier for the next two weeks, since i'm posting from skorea right now...

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Democrat 2004!

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
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Feb 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
WOOHOO!!!!

we're not going to bomb nkorea!!!!!!!

that means that i can breathe easier for the next two weeks, since i'm posting from skorea right now...


Yep. South Korea is going to have a nuclear-armed North Korea as a neighbor for YEARS to come. I'm sure NK will be just as responsible with their weapons as the US, Russia, France, Britain, India, Pakistan and Israel are.

Gatekeeper

Sava is offline Sava
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Nukes should really bother SK, it's the 10,000 plus artillery pieces aimed at Seoul.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
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Cool combo, Sava. Ten thousand artillery pieces combined with nuclear weapons, all pointing in one southerly direction ... my, what has SK ever done to threaten NK? Last time I checked, it was NK armies that ravaged SK ... oh, yes, it's the big-bad United States. If we'd just leave, a united and peaceful Korea could be reborn from the ashes of division!

Gatekeeper

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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Nov 2001
time: 06:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 00:35
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dp. I'm doing them more and more :worried:

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
I thought this was all about liberating the oppressed Iraqi people from a tolitarian regime.

Did you believe it one second ?

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Cool combo, Sava. Ten thousand artillery pieces combined with nuclear weapons, all pointing in one southerly direction ... my, what has SK ever done to threaten NK? Last time I checked, it was NK armies that ravaged SK ... oh, yes, it's the big-bad United States. If we'd just leave, a united and peaceful Korea could be reborn from the ashes of division!

Gatekeeper
NK is not going to pre-emptively nuke SK.

NK is sees SK as a US puppet regime. Perhaps you need to learn about the history of Korea and how they view any foreign powers meddling in their peninsula. They make no distinction between the Mongols, the Japanese of WW2, and the Americans.

In terms of leaving, I didn't comment on that. So don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 00:39 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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Take a damn chill pill, Sava. Trust me, boy, if I were being "serious" about it, I wouldn't have conveniently included the seemingly obligatory that some folks need to understand the distinction between serious and non-serious posts.

Gatekeeper

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yeah, many, many years ago! He was going after it since Gulf War I!! That doesn't mean he's always taken seriously. THIS war was more Rumsfeld and Cheney, and you know that.


Uh, then why was he made the number two man in DoD? (and the real policy shot-caller behind the scenes, SecDef's are usually marketing and PR guys in front of Congress and the press)

This war and the whole approach to the ME is Wolfowitz all the way, baby.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 00:52
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quote:
then why was he made the number two man in DoD?


Never hear of political appointments to appease other people? It's a nod to his father's team... and appeased the far right at the time (along with Ashcroft).

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 05-06-2003 at 00:58

Colon is offline Colon
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 00:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
then why was he made the number two man in DoD?


Never hear of political appointments? It's a nod to his father's team... and appeased the far right at the time (along with Ashcroft).


A political appointment at a govt dept. Yeah, that's shocking news alright.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 00:57
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You know what I mean... it was merely mean to appease groups in the party.

GePap is offline GePap
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Sorry Imran, but Powell is the nod to Poppies team. Wolfowitz is not the only one. You then have guys like Bolton, and Rummy himself. Lets remember that it was Poppie who had Cheney re-write Wolfie's little '92 paper.

Wolfowitz is in line with the core DoD team, and the DoD isd the one with the stronger hand in foreign policy.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:01
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Imran:

And that excludes him calling the shots? How?

I don't know how much influence he has, but your point says very little about it.

Colon is offline Colon
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You know what I mean... it was merely mean to appease groups in the party.


That claim sounds a bit hollow if you consider how many ideas the administration has adopted from the neocon think tanks lately. (especially wrt FP)
Even if the guy really is a nobody, everybody sees him as one of the biggest proponents of the neocon agenda, and for that fact alone this comment has a heavy impact. (whether its pulled out of its context doesn't really matter either - this quote is going to show up a lot of times from now on)

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:07
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quote:
And that excludes him calling the shots? How?

I don't know how much influence he has, but your point says very little about it.


His opinion is considered, but it isn't always followed as some of the people here seem to believe. Sometimes he'll be followed, other times not. His influence doesn't reach Cheney's or Rumsfield's... even Powell sometimes probably has more pull than Wolfy does.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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Dec 2000
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:13
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calm down guys - it was taken out of context.

He was asked why economic sanctions would work against North Korea, but not against Iraq - we didnt have economic options against Iraq, its swimming on a sea of oil.


IE Iraq could smuggle out oil and defeat sanctions, while Nkor depends on imported oil.
Which any fool could see.

But this is a pleasant diversion from contemplating the mass grave of 200 Kurdish children that has just been discovered.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:20
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quote:
He was asked why economic sanctions would work against North Korea, but not against Iraq - we didnt have economic options against Iraq, its swimming on a sea of oil.


Interesting... so the question was all about economic sanctions? Hmm... that'll teach me to trust a British newspaper again!

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:22
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Heres what he really said.
From the Belgravia Dispatch, via Instapundit.



"The United States hopes to end the nuclear standoff with North Korea by putting economic pressure on the impoverished nation, U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said Saturday. North Korea would respond to economic pressure, unlike Iraq, where military action was necessary because the country's oil money was propping up the regime, Wolfowitz told delegates at the second annual Asia Security Conference in Singapore."


"The country is teetering on the edge of economic collapse," Wolfowitz said. "That I believe is a major point of leverage." "The primary difference between North Korea and Iraq is that we had virtually no economic options in Iraq because the country floats on a sea of oil," he said. Wolfowitz did not elaborate on how Washington intends to put economic pressure on North Korea, but said other countries in the region helping it should send a message that "they're not going to continue doing that if North Korea continues down the road it's on."


Al Guardian really screwed up this time.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
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Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:26
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Here's the source the Guardian refers to:

http://www.welt.de/data/2003/06/02/...tz&searchHILI=1

The question was: "Why the different treatment Iraq/NK?". I think what Wolfojoke wanted to say was about the effect of economic sanctions, but it isn't clear. I'd still think Freud played a role in the way he phrased that.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Here's the source the Guardian refers to:

http://www.welt.de/data/2003/06/02/...tz&searchHILI=1

The question was: "Why the different treatment Iraq/NK?". I think what Wolfojoke wanted to say was about the effect of economic sanctions, but it isn't clear. I'd still think Freud played a role in the way he phrased that.


and which turn of the century Viennese played a role in how al guardian distorted it - Karl Lueger maybe?

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:31
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Here's the source the Guardian refers to:

http://www.welt.de/data/2003/06/02/...tz&searchHILI=1

The question was: "Why the different treatment Iraq/NK?". I think what Wolfojoke wanted to say was about the effect of economic sanctions, but it isn't clear. I'd still think Freud played a role in the way he phrased that.


wofie presumably spoke (in singapore) in English - is it usually the practice at Al-guardian to cite a German language source in such cases, and translate back into English? Kinda helps explain the misquotation then, but seems a sloppy practice.

OneFootInTheGrave is offline OneFootInTheGrave
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:32
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quote:

Q: What I meant is that essentially North Korea is being taken more seriously because it has become a nuclear power by its own admission, whether or not that’s true, and that the lesson that people will have is that in the case of Iraq it became imperative to confront Iraq militarily because it had banned weapons systems and posed a danger to the region. In the case of North Korea, which has nuclear weapons as well as other banned weapons of mass destruction, apparently it is imperative not to confront, to persuade and to essentially maintain a regime that is just as appalling as the Iraqi regime in place, for the sake of the stability of the region. To other countries of the world this is a very mixed message to be sending out.



Wolfowitz: The concern about implosion is not primarily at all a matter of the weapons that North Korea has, but a fear particularly by South Korea and also to some extent China of what the larger implications are for them of having 20 million people on their borders in a state of potential collapse and anarchy. It’s is also a question of whether, if one wants to persuade the regime to change, whether you have to find -- and I think you do -- some kind of outcome that is acceptable to them. But that outcome has to be acceptable to us, and it has to include meeting our non-proliferation goals.



Look, the primarily difference -- to put it a little too simply -- between North Korea and Iraq is that we had virtually no economic options with Iraq because the country floats on a sea of oil. In the case of North Korea, the country is teetering on the edge of economic collapse and that I believe is a major point of leverage whereas the military picture with North Korea is very different from that with Iraq. The problems in both cases have some similarities but the solutions have got to be tailored to the circumstances which are very different.


from http://www.defenselink.mil/transcri...secdef0246.html

to cleare up the confusion...

cyclotron7 is offline cyclotron7
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Jan 2001
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:37
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It sounds like he's talking about the increased economic viability of rebuilding Iraq, not about oil for the US. What exactly do you think it sounded like?

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:37
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Guardian headline:

"Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil "

what he said:

"Look, the primarily difference -- to put it a little too simply -- between North Korea and Iraq is that we had virtually no economic options with Iraq because the country floats on a sea of oil. In the case of North Korea, the country is teetering on the edge of economic collapse and that I believe is a major point of leverage whereas the military picture with North Korea is very different from that with Iraq. The problems in both cases have some similarities but the solutions have got to be tailored to the circumstances which are very different."

the only thing this thread has proven is that the Guardian is shameless.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
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Nov 2002
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 01:46
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Well the quote was correct. The headline was almost Foxesque.

 
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