05-06-2003 03:37									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Yes on Franco.. Videla absolutely not.. he didn't do anything for Argentina besides murder. And Pinochet.. well he murdered people.. but he did good for the Chilean economy.

Yep, all is well... Keep up the economy even if takes some lives. Try to tell that to Victor Jara's widow and kids.

Now if you can explain the difference between what's happening in China and all those fascist dictatorships you seem to be in love with...

	05-06-2003 03:40									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Fez What crimes of capitalism?

You're funny, Fez (oddly, when I read your posts I "think in" the Fez character's voice).

How's about Enron? What about gun companies marketing to criminals (unless you can think of another reason for a finger-proof grip)? Union busting (usually violent in the 19th century)? Granted, capitalism doesn't usually get as flashy ...

And even if the Chinese government calls themselves communist, they aren't communists. They've been privatizing health care of all things. They are a new bread of authoritarian capitalism.

	05-06-2003 03:44									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Yep, all is well... Keep up the economy even if takes some lives. Try to tell that to Victor Jara's widow and kids. Now if you can explain the difference between what's happening in China and all those fascist dictatorships you seem to be in love with...

Well In Chile Pinochet actually has a very large crowd of supporters believe it or not. I'd rather listen to them.

In love with? Name one besides Franco. Franco was just a result of the civil war.. there wasn't anybody else except some dumb commies.

Templar, I am talking about capitalism, not criminal behavior.

And China is very well communist. Look at all the public industries still owned by the government.

	05-06-2003 03:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar How's about Enron?

Your comparing Enron to the Massacre

	05-06-2003 03:49									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well In Chile Pinochet actually has a very large crowd of supporters believe it or not. I'd rather listen to them. In love with? Name one besides Franco. Franco was just a result of the civil war.. there wasn't anybody else except some dumb commies.

I believe you. Stalin still has a large support in Russia today...

And I don't get your remark about Franco. Unless you consider people like Hemmingway, Orwell and Picasso "some dumb commies".

	05-06-2003 03:53									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij And I don't get your remark about Franco. Unless you consider people like Hemmingway, Orwell and Picasso "some dumb commies".

Hemmingway and Orwell are what? Are they Spanish? Do they have a right to run my country? No they don't. Picasso.. well.. he is Spanish... but I don't like the guy. My grandfather fought with the nationalists and is spanish...

We have a right to our soverignity. Franco crushed the communists ("republicans") with the help of Hitler. It was a reclaiming of our national pride and soverignity. Not that bullshit those stupid commies would of put us through... they can go to hell. They attacked our country and paid the price.

Just imagine if we had to suffer under the reigns of those idiots commies....

	05-06-2003 03:55									#37
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quote: And Pinochet.. well he murdered people.. but he did good for the Chilean economy.

You're not real, are you?!

	05-06-2003 04:01									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Templar, I am talking about capitalism, not criminal behavior. And China is very well communist. Look at all the public industries still owned by the government.

If that's what you mean, then communism causes no crime either - rather criminal behaviour is undertaken under with communism being the excuse.

But, if you want to speak in more general terms, capitalism fosters social darwinism, destructive competitiveness, and a blame the victim mentality when it comes to poverty issues.

Sprayber - you want crimes? How about Unocal employing the Myanmar army to extract slave labor from villiages - often killing those to weak to work or unable to work fast enough. That bad enough for you? How about forced prostitution? You like that? How about HMOs withholding life-saving treatment to pad out their profit margin? Is that criminal enough for you? How about the assassination of labor leaders by Coca Cola subsidiaries in Colombia? Gives a new meaning to "ice cold".

	05-06-2003 04:01									#39
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quote: ...the help of Hitler. It was a reclaiming of our national pride and soverignity

Alva, I'm afraid he is serious...

On a side note, can't you change your handle? alva is not very popular over here

	05-06-2003 04:03									#40
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quote: But, if you want to speak in more general terms, capitalism fosters social darwinism, destructive competitiveness, and a blame the victim mentality when it comes to poverty issues.

Really? You are so full of it. We are talking about capitalism. Not feudalism.

You are also full of it in your response to Sprayber. That is not capitalism there.

Coca Cola subsidaries don't assassinate people in Colombia. Those were paramilitaries and rebels. The criminal AUC, FARC and ELN at work. Not a company. How do I know that? I only been to the country a dozen times.

	05-06-2003 04:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Fez And Pinochet.. well he murdered people.. but he did good for the Chilean economy.

Hmmm, and overthrew a democratically elected government. Just goes to show you don't give a damn about freedom, liberty, or democracy. GUess that's all neoliberals - market concerns and property rights over the liberty and democratic choice of the people.

You might as well defend Hitler while you are at it.

quote: We have a right to our soverignity. Franco crushed the communists ("republicans") with the help of Hitler

Oh, I guess you sort of did already.

	05-06-2003 04:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Hmmm, and overthrew a democratically elected government. Just goes to show you don't give a damn about freedom, liberty, or democracy. GUess that's all neoliberals - market concerns and property rights over the liberty and democratic choice of the people.

I didn't defend Pinochet in this thread. I just said he did well with the economy. I dislike his measures he took on the opposition however. He didn't have to kill them, only arrest them.

quote: You might as well defend Hitler while you are at it. Oh, I guess you sort of did already.

hahaha.. I hate Hitler.. just that we didn't have a choice but to ask him for help.

	05-06-2003 04:08									#43
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: And Pinochet.. well he murdered people.. but he did good for the Chilean economy. You're not real, are you?!

You don't know Fez very well, do you ?

	05-06-2003 04:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Really? You are so full of it. We are talking about capitalism. Not feudalism. You are also full of it in your response to Sprayber. That is not capitalism there.

Cute distinction. Our capitalist institutions are exploiting non-captialist institutions to further capitalist goals (i.e. profit maximization).

quote: Coca Cola subsidaries don't assassinate people in Colombia. Those were paramilitaries and rebels. The criminal AUC, FARC and ELN at work. Not a company. How do I know that? I only been to the country a dozen times.

Sorry again, right-wing paramilitaries funded by Coke subsidiaries killed the labor leaders. I guess that distinction makes everything OK.

	05-06-2003 04:10									#45
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Fez, here's one for you, a Commie painting:

	05-06-2003 04:11									#46
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No on the first count to templar. Then go live in a cave if you want to be a true communist. Stop using the computer too. You are full of crap when you say anything about exploitation.. type communist nonsense.

No on the count number two. That isn't true. Also you never been to the country, I have.

	05-06-2003 04:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I didn't defend Pinochet in this thread. I just said he did well with the economy. I dislike his measures he took on the opposition however. He didn't have to kill them, only arrest them.

How could he arrest the opposition when they won the ****ing election? Pinochet's the one that should be in jail for treason.

	05-06-2003 04:12									#48
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Was Tiananmen Square too boring for you Hueij?

	05-06-2003 04:14									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Fez, here's one for you, a Commie painting:

Ah the painting of the Guernica...

Hmm... my grandfather took a bullet in the shoulder because of communism.

It is not allowed in our country and we did away with it in the proper manner. When the USSR decided it wanted to expand itself to our country, we took really good care of what they sent. Afterall most of what the Republican forces used was USSR built crap.

I got a photo of my grandfather firing a Mauser 98 towards those commies...

	05-06-2003 04:16									#50
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar How could he arrest the opposition when they won the ****ing election? Pinochet's the one that should be in jail for treason.

The opposition didn't win the election. In fact there were allegations of vote fraud done by the socialists. It was very apparent. And he could arrest the opposition when he has seized control of the country like he did in that September of 1973.

	05-06-2003 04:16									#51
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Ranskaldan:

I don't know the specific demands of the Tian An Men protestors, so I won't discuss your assertion that they would have brought unfathomable chaos to China (i.e I think you are probably right)

However, even if those people were unreasonable, it was still outrageous to have slaughtered 7000 of them ! When a regime disagrees with people, there are other ways to ignore them -we in the EU have plenty .

The massacre was outrageous no matter of the message held by the protestors and I'm surprised that you defend it

	05-06-2003 04:17									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Was Tiananmen Square too boring for you Hueij?

Nope. Tiananmen reminded me why I was wrong during the '70s. But I'm getting a little tired of people who are defending people like Franco and Pinochet.

Good enough answer?

	05-06-2003 04:18									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Fez No on the first count to templar. Then go live in a cave if you want to be a true communist. Stop using the computer too. You are full of crap when you say anything about exploitation.. type communist nonsense.

Why? If I wanted to be a true communist I'd be promoting cities with collectively owned factories/software houses/service providers and collective farms. Not caves. Have you even read Marx? How about you construct a proper argument instead of yammering on and defending mass murderers like Pinochet.

quote: No on the count number two. That isn't true. Also you never been to the country, I have.

Hmm, were you privy to the secrets of the FARC and the right wing paras? Did you hang out with them? If not, then you don't have first hand knowledge even if you have been to Colombia.

Of course, maybe you were kidnapped by right wing paras and are suffering Stockholm syndrome ...

	05-06-2003 04:20									#54
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Hueij :
What evil has Thomas Alva Edison ever done to you ?

	05-06-2003 04:20									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Nope. Tiananmen reminded me why I was wrong during the '70s.

Wrong in what way?

quote: But I'm getting a little tired of people who are defending people like Franco and Pinochet.

If Fez is annoying you, just call him an idiot and ignore him like most people do when he starts talking about Franco and co.

	05-06-2003 04:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Why? If I wanted to be a true communist I'd be promoting cities with collectively owned factories/software houses/service providers and collective farms. Not caves. Have you even read Marx? How about you construct a proper argument instead of yammering on and defending mass murderers like Pinochet.

True communists don't want any economy. In fact the word economy to them is capitalist.

quote: Hmm, were you privy to the secrets of the FARC and the right wing paras? Did you hang out with them? If not, then you don't have first hand knowledge even if you have been to Colombia.

I hate both of them. I support the Colombian Armed Forces which are handing the FARC, ELN and AUC's asses to them. The Colombian Army has lately been attacking the AUC quite a bit... contrary to what some think the ties between the Army and AUC have long been broken.

quote: Of course, maybe you were kidnapped by right wing paras and are suffering Stockholm syndrome ...

I was in the custody of the Army... visited a military hospital while I was there and stayed in Bogota.

	05-06-2003 04:22									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Fez The opposition didn't win the election. In fact there were allegations of vote fraud done by the socialists. It was very apparent. And he could arrest the opposition when he has seized control of the country like he did in that September of 1973.

He could in a physical sense, but had no right or legitimacy in doing so.

Do you have proof of vote fraud? Sounds like after the fact excuses. There are always allegations of vote fraud - just like the 2000 US election...

Oh wait, their was vote fraud in the 2000 election. Just ask black voters in Florida.

	05-06-2003 04:23									#58
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Want to know one more of my personal heroes templar?

http://www.alvarouribevelez.com.co/

He was elected by a landslide and is now taking a no mercy approach to rebels and paramilitaries.

	05-06-2003 04:24									#59
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar He could in a physical sense, but had no right or legitimacy in doing so. Do you have proof of vote fraud? Sounds like after the fact excuses. There are always allegations of vote fraud - just like the 2000 US election... Oh wait, their was vote fraud in the 2000 election. Just ask black voters in Florida.

Well in the 2000 elections, there was vote fraud. The democrats really did it when they wanted the vote recounted about a dozen times.. either way Bush would of won Florida no matter what.

	05-06-2003 04:26									#60
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Fez/Templar: Can you two take your handbag swinging to another thread? This might actually turn into an interesting thread without you two ****ing it up.