05-06-2003 21:20									#151
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I think I'll need to divide the debate into two parts.

1) Democratization.

Democratization cannot be done overnight in China. China's primary goal right now should be economic development, because only that would lay the bedrock for a liberal, open, stable society. Undermining the current CCP leadership overnight and leaving behind a power vacuum would create an anarchy that would take many thousands, or even millions, of lives.

From what I can see, most people here agree with that, more or less.

2) The Handling of Tiananmen

Here's where things turn blurry. If you agree with point 1) you would agree that the demonstrators Tiananmen should definitely have been dispersed in one form or the other - whether by appeasement or by force. But the question is - would negotiations have worked? If the demonstration have been left unchecked, would China have descended into the anarchy described in point 1)?

At this point I would like to quote mindseye:

quote: In fact, near the end of the demonstrations, there were a lot more people than just students involved. Workers were showing up, marching under banners of their factories. Even party members (including policemen!) were getting involved. Teachers from the school which educated CCP elite's children were marching. What a lot of westerners don’t realize is that this was not just a bunch of college students protesting in the square. At the time, many people felt that the entire city of Beijing was slipping towards a state of civil disorder - this is what scared the bejesus out of the CCP.

Now - would negotiations have worked? Frankly, I doubt it. No matter what the original intents of the students were (and seriously - do you think they were stopping at just "dialog"?), the movement, had it been left alive, would have doubtlessly spread down the ladder to the proletariat in more fervent forms. And when 700 million peasants demonstrate and riot - well then, the combined fury of 3000 years of poverty would have been let loose. Perhaps, some of you here have to personally see lynching and looting on the streets on China to believe that the "demonstrators are getting violent". But then, that would already have been too late. One hundred Tiananmens and one thousand negotiations wouldn't have saved China if that had been left to happen.

Now, mindseye has posted photos that are tugging at the emotions of many here. It is sad that we can't import photos from the alternative timeline where the demonstrations were left to continue, spread into the vast countryside, and folded the nation upon itself. Photos from THAT timeline would contain one thousand times more blood, gore, and pain than the ones mindseye has shown. And it is not likely that negotiations would have pre-empted that.

	05-06-2003 21:26									#152
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rans,

You are making one huge mistake. Murdering one person for the purpose of trying to save any other number is immoral, because murder is always wrong.

	05-06-2003 21:30									#153
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Again, I though it had been pointed out that the students' demands were not "overnight democraticization" but rather a dialouge on reform.

There is a big gap between the two.

Still, crushing demostrators who had been peaceful to that point with the army, which resulted in either several hundred or several thousand deaths (depending on whom you believe), was a terrible thing to do. REGARDLESS of the fears of the leadership - justified or no.

Look, I understand the Chinese cultural fear of disorder. It makes sense. I know enough about Chinese history to understand that chaos usually = millions dead. But you don't know that chaos would have resulted from a non-lethal response by the authorities, do you? I don't even think it was probable, let alone guaranteed.

-Arrian

	05-06-2003 21:33									#154
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Every trully great crime is always justified with "a future" that we can never trully know exists.

	05-06-2003 21:36									#155
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Well, GePap, that kinda applies to every action... ever. It just depends on how plausible that "future" is.

-Arrian

	05-06-2003 21:59									#156
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Not every action. Actions taken based on emotions or strong feelings don't care about the future, they are all about NOW. Crimes of passions vs premeditated crimes.

	05-06-2003 22:05									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Millions. When?

We've only had one march that ever had more than a million people at once, and that was one of the anti-nuke rallies in the early 1980s. A couple of times we've had a million or more protesting at once, just not all in the same spot. The protests against the invasion of Cambodia probably brought a million people out.

Largest demo I was ever involved in was a pro-choice demo at the Mall in D.C. back in 1989, which was about a half million (which, IIRC, is the largest demo ever at that spot). If you count the world wide demo Feb 15th, which was millions world-wide, then that's the biggest one I've been in, even though there were less than a 100 people where I was (idiot organizers ).

	05-06-2003 22:15									#158
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Fez, you should be praising Mao and his commies. I mean, China 60 years ago was an invaded wasteland with no economy, at civil war, at war with Japan and permanently threatened with foreign intervention. For fourty years before that, China had existed in a state of total anarchy. And a hundred years before that they were running China on precepts invented by Confucius two thousand years earlier.

And in fifty years of communism, China went from most destroyed country in the world to 'listened to' voice on the Security Council and with power of leverage in the world. They have an economy that floods the western markets with exported cheap and durable goods.

Communism in China worked miracles, Mao saved China! Who cares if a million Chinese are dead? The economy was saved! Long live Mao!

	05-06-2003 22:22									#159
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Where did you get a mini-Lenin? I want a mini-Lenin!

	05-06-2003 22:24									#160
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Mini-Lenins are the Red Front Democracy Game avatars. I'm sure our Comrade Marshal and the esteemed members of the Politburo will permit you to use one.

	05-06-2003 22:27									#161
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Where did you get a mini-Lenin? I want a mini-Lenin!

-Arrian

	05-06-2003 22:41									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Anybody who thinks that China is close to a market economy should have witnessed the scene where I had to explain to a local Communist Party official what an economist is. He just couldn't get it. After about 10 minutes I gave up and told him I was an engineer.

Just the language barrier?

	05-06-2003 22:46									#163
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The conversation took place through an interpreter. There just did not seem to be words in the language to express the concept.

	05-06-2003 22:49									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith The conversation took place through an interpreter. There just did not seem to be words in the language to express the concept.

Yeah, they probably just call them social engineers or something.

	05-06-2003 22:56									#165
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Iraqi massacre celebration is when?

you missed it. 12 anniversary of the 1991 massacres of kurds and shiites was last month. You'll have to wait for the 13th anniversary.

Or were you were referring to the anniversary of the Halabja gassing? Not sure what time of year that was.

	05-06-2003 23:07									#166
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Ran: You're getting as bad as Fez.
Fez: You're nuts as always. Murder is okay if the economy does well. Talk about nuts.

What happened there was simple: unarmed civilians were slaughtered during the night by the military. It was wrong. Period. The government didn't do it because they were communists. The gods knows the KMT were just as bad.

This was a government that panicked and used brute force to put down a peaceful protest. Deng and the others have done wonders for China, but this remains a bloody stain on their record.

	06-06-2003 00:27									#167
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark you missed it. 12 anniversary of the 1991 massacres of kurds and shiites was last month. You'll have to wait for the 13th anniversary. Or were you were referring to the anniversary of the Halabja gassing? Not sure what time of year that was.

It's a troll Who do you think he's referring to?

	06-06-2003 00:57									#168
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David Floyd:

quote: rans, You are making one huge mistake. Murdering one person for the purpose of trying to save any other number is immoral, because murder is always wrong.

If you have the power to prevent the death of 100 people, and you don't, you're the murderer of 100 people.

The case is, therefore, the choice between being the murderer of 1 and being the murderer of 100.

Arrian:

quote: Still, crushing demostrators who had been peaceful to that point with the army, which resulted in either several hundred or several thousand deaths (depending on whom you believe), was a terrible thing to do. REGARDLESS of the fears of the leadership - justified or no.

Of course it was terrible. I agree with you on that.

GePap:

quote: Every trully great crime is always justified with "a future" that we can never trully know exists.

So every human decision, as long as it is justified by "a future" that we never get to see, is therefore a truly great crime?

A -> B, hence B -> A. That is the most fallacious generalization in this thread yet.

Tingkai:

quote: Ran: You're getting as bad as Fez. .... What happened there was simple: unarmed civilians were slaughtered during the night by the military. It was wrong. Period. The government didn't do it because they were communists. The gods knows the KMT were just as bad. This was a government that panicked and used brute force to put down a peaceful protest. Deng and the others have done wonders for China, but this remains a bloody stain on their record.

Do you seriously think that given enough time, the protests would have fizzled out?

	06-06-2003 01:00									#169
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan David Floyd: If you have the power to prevent the death of 100 people, and you don't, you're the murderer of 100 people. The case is, therefore, the choice between being the murderer of 1 and being the murderer of 100.

But that's based on a speculative future. One that many may disagree with. Especially, those that died.

quote: GePap: So every human decision, as long as it is justified by "a future" that we never get to see, is therefore a truly great crime? A -> B, hence B -> A. That is the most fallacious generalization in this thread yet.

You're just grasping at straws here. That wasn't what he meant and you should know better.

	06-06-2003 01:06									#170
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi But that's based on a speculative future. One that many may disagree with. Especially, those that died.

So hence it's wrong, because many people disagree with it.

An utter non-point right there.

quote: You're just grasping at straws here. That wasn't what he meant and you should know better.

That was precisely what he meant.

	06-06-2003 01:08									#171
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quote: Do you seriously think that given enough time, the protests would have fizzled out?

Ah, but do you seriously think that, given an attempt by the CCP to discuss the demostrator's concerns, that the demonstrations would have continued?

We can go around on this all day, of course. But IMO, the massacre was a direct result of a totalitarian government not being able to deal with its people's concerns in a non-violent manner. Their only response, it seems, is to call in the Tanks.

-Arrian

	06-06-2003 01:15									#172
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan So hence it's wrong, because many people disagree with it. An utter non-point right there.

What is wrong with you? You're saying its right because you agree with it. Why can't you and UR argue? Are you really that blind?

quote: That was precisely what he meant.

If he denies that, will you come over here and suck my ****?

Now that's an argument!

	06-06-2003 01:19									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ah, but do you seriously think that, given an attempt by the CCP to discuss the demostrator's concerns, that the demonstrations would have continued? We can go around on this all day, of course.

I agree with you that we'll never know for sure if negotiations would've worked. IMO though, sizzling negotiations would've run the risk of dragging workers/peasants out on the streets in much larger numbers. Then everything would've been over.

	06-06-2003 01:19									#174
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Ran: you keep basing your arguemnt on the notion that had the portestors not been put down, social chaos and desrcution would have followed. Well, you don;t know that to be true fo a second. You assume it to be true, and that assumption is not enough, on anyones part, to justify what was done that day.

Any great crime, from the Holocaust on culd always be "justified", as long as one starts trying to construct some alternate future that was better than the current one, just as long as the crime occurs. I personally don't care to wallow in such notions, specially if the assumption of what will be is based on somehitng as ridiculous as "lessons from history"

	06-06-2003 01:20									#175
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quote: Photos from THAT timeline would contain one thousand times more blood, gore, and pain than the ones mindseye has shown.

Sorry, Rans, but your entire argument is based on a fundamental fallacy: "Appeal to consequences of Belief". From Nizkor (a link I got from you! ):

quote: Appeal to Consequences of a Belief The Appeal to the Consequences of a Belief is a fallacy that comes in the following patterns: X is true because if people did not accept X as being true then there would be negative consequences. (...) This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the consequences of a belief have no bearing on whether the belief is true or false.

In other words, your conjectural future has just as much validity (i.e. none) as a similar argument that any given speculative future would have turned out better!

The leaders had any number of options open that day. But they chose one that for certain had murderous consequences. When they ordered the 27th Army to shoot it's way into the square using live ammunition, there was little question as to whether or not lives would be lost.

This is why the rest of the world was so shocked and revulsed by what happened that day. Your painting imaginary futures which justify the massacre do you no credit.

	06-06-2003 01:31									#176
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: Photos from THAT timeline would contain one thousand times more blood, gore, and pain than the ones mindseye has shown. Sorry, Rans, but your entire argument is based on a fundamental fallacy: "Appeal to consequences of Belief". From Nizkor (a link I got from you! ):

That fallacy is basically based on the idea that: A is bad, hence A is false. But that's fallacious because desirability is not connected to truth/falsehood. You can have nice truths, nasty truths, nice falsehoods and nasty falsehoods.

And how is that connected to mine?

	06-06-2003 01:37									#177
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quote: If you have the power to prevent the death of 100 people, and you don't, you're the murderer of 100 people.

No, the person who murders 100 is the murderer of 100. If you have a moral means to prevent that murder, you should of course take that course of action. However, murder is never a moral course of action - you're simply murdering an innocent.

quote: The case is, therefore, the choice between being the murderer of 1 and being the murderer of 100.

You're half right - the choice is between being the murderer of 1 and the murderer or none. My choice is to murder nobody.

If someone decides to murder 100 people, that decision can't be attributed to you in any way whatsoever, only to the immorality of that one person.

	06-06-2003 01:38									#178
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Further, your use of the phrase "power to prevent murder" is wrong. You have the power to prevent yourself from committing murder, but your power does not extend to controlling the decisions of others.

Take responsibility for your own actions - if you kill someone, you are a murderer, and if someone else kills 100 people, then they are also a murderer. But if you refuse to commit murder, and someone else decides to commit murder, then how can you be the murderer? It doesn't make any sense at all.

	06-06-2003 01:42									#179
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, the person who murders 100 is the murderer of 100. If you have a moral means to prevent that murder, you should of course take that course of action. However, murder is never a moral course of action - you're simply murdering an innocent.

As a bystander with full knowledge and power to change the situation, you are also a murderer. And what about a case when the 100 people are about to die of pneumonia - or kill each other?

quote: You're half right - the choice is between being the murderer of 1 and the murderer or none. My choice is to murder nobody.

"Murderer of none" is self-delusion. 100 people died and you had the power to change it - yet you didn't.

	06-06-2003 01:43									#180
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Further, your use of the phrase "power to prevent murder" is wrong. You have the power to prevent yourself from committing murder, but your power does not extend to controlling the decisions of others.

In this specific case you do control the decisions of others. That's why there's the word "prevent" in there.

In other words, if one child is about to pour sulphuric acid over another child (both are too young to understand), you should simply stand aside because you aren't making the decision, even though you can easily prevent it?