06-06-2003 05:29									#31
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Deterrent.

	06-06-2003 06:11									#32
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I disagree.

I think that they are in a stalemate.

Sure, GS looks longingly on our lands. Who (except Lego) doesn't.

But our best strategy is also one that we will never take. We will never start a war. Period. We won't do it. We are a bunch of pansy loving peace kissing do gooders that will stab someone in the back the instant we get the oportunity, but never, ever slap them in the face. That is why we will never give iron to Vox, unless it looks like they will be wiped off the face of the earth and they come begging and pleading to us for it.

No. We should have attacked ND long ago. We should have made Bob ours. Now, ND and GoW will soon be able to attack us, with a GA and their UU.

GS had the ability to invade us, and WE ARE YELLING AT THEM & CALLING THEM NAMES. I don't get it. Trying to make them into enemies.

Just realize, not everybody picks apart anything said for any and all meanings, then assumes the worst of them are what was ment. Sometimes a fart is just a fart - let is stink and go away.

The Dead Guy without a Head

	06-06-2003 06:18									#33
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GK, I know I became quite tired of standing around and doing nothing after the Lux war. Obviously, that was a different situation and we truly had no choice in the matter, but I didn't like it, and I wouldn't like it now.

	06-06-2003 06:56									#34
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Thanks for the idea GK.

We can tell the world we gave Iron to Vox out of pity! We didn't want to see them elimenated by GS. And since GS has settled two cities in Vox's land, it very much looks like a GS rout! At least that is the logic we could use to explain why we would giv it to them.

	06-06-2003 07:16									#35
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I know, and we all know, that it's bad diplomacy to argue in public, but I'm sick of reading posts about people who seem to think that we are making GS hate us. My posts and the posts of several people on this team in the public forum were in response to their thoughts and statements. No one read anything into those posts, they were giving threats that people should not aid Vox, especially since they went to so much trouble to cut off Vox's iron.

When this was pointed out they backtracked, claimed they weren't threatening, then starting making outrageous attacks on our team, going as far as to accuse us of starting the Vox GS war and other absolutely stupid and innane things.

Sure, we could have just shut up and let them be d*cks. That would have been OK, but it wouldn't solve anything. It doesn't change their beliefs, and it doesn't change their initial hostility towards us.

Don't for a minute blame anyone on this team for making GS Hate us. That idea is a farse. If they hadn't posted their feelings they'd still exist, and they do exist within their forums. We're just fortunate that it finally came out.

I don't think that DeepO's ridiculous belief that we convinced Vox to attack GS is due to the fact that a couple of us posted replied in his public threat forum. When they hold beliefs like that privately, our silence doesnt' do a damn thing to dispell them. Sure, our arguing probably doesn't help things either, but it might. It might be enough to get a sensible member of their team to step in and try to make the peace, bring out all the issues, put them on the table, and resolve them.

All our silence tells them is that we don't disagree with them.

--Togas

	06-06-2003 07:32									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Togas When they hold beliefs like that privately, our silence doesnt' do a damn thing to dispell them. Sure, our arguing probably doesn't help things either, but it might. It might be enough to get a sensible member of their team to step in and try to make the peace, bring out all the issues, put them on the table, and resolve them.

Though I disagree with the way the posting went in public and will not attempt to justify it, I agree 100% that the solution is to mediate the dispute

	06-06-2003 07:51									#37
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Togas - please my friend. I may disagree with you on some things, but please note, I did not say (as implied) to remain silent. I offer a difference of opinion.

From the number of PM's I have received since I first posted in that thread (from 5 different members of GS - all asking to remain confidential and private), GS is paranoid against us. They feel, rightly the way we have been not communicating with them, that we dislike their team and want to see them die as soon as possible. OK. Are they a threat to us - D@mn straigh they are. Do we want to see them knocked down - yes. Do we want them dead and gone - NO, that leaves lots of room for someone else to emerge and threaten us. What I am saying is why make an enemy when there is no need. They already are knocked down. They wasted their GA. They are in a sticky fight that will probably destroy both themselves and Vox for long term victory, and they know it.

DeepO and others said some stupid things. And yes, I think he and his team know it and are a bit embarassed. What I am saying is don't rub their faces in it. Don't trap them in a corner (they will do that to themselves eventually anyways). Don't antaginize them. Don't increase their paranoia of us, else we will be their target, even if it is just to be a spoiler (they have no chance of winning - so why let us have a chance kinda thing).

Now that we are communicating, GS's paranoia of us is lifting a bit. It is good and right to defend ourselves. It is another thing to point at them, call and point out all their flaws, then rub their noses in it. Think about what I am saying my friends. Think about the differences I am pointing out. They are minute, but significant.

GS can be a friend, an enemy, or neutral. I know that even if they are our freind, we will always act as if they are an enemy and defend ourselves accordingly. As they would do with us.

You wonder why we came to light in this conversation. Think about it. It is well known that we have an extra sourse of Iron (or at least, the potential of an extra) that we can trade to them. So does ND, but they are never on the forums. Nobody knows what Lego has (and they are not saying). So yes, it is obvious that we would be the ones to give to Vox the iron they will need. A simple check of the diplomicy (I think - I am not completely familiar with the changes made with multiplayer) screen should confirm who is trading what with whome, so don't think any gift would not be known.

Anyways, enough talk. Good night.

(and visit the SPDG now and then you all)

GK

	06-06-2003 11:57									#38
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing You wonder why we came to light in this conversation. Think about it. It is well known that we have an extra sourse of Iron (or at least, the potential of an extra) that we can trade to them. So does ND, but they are never on the forums. Nobody knows what Lego has (and they are not saying). So yes, it is obvious that we would be the ones to give to Vox the iron they will need. A simple check of the diplomicy (I think - I am not completely familiar with the changes made with multiplayer) screen should confirm who is trading what with whome, so don't think any gift would not be known.

I have checked several MP games and I've yet to find a way to see how they would find out who traded what to whom. Will someone, if they know how it can be done, please explain it to me. Thanks.

	06-06-2003 20:45									#39
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Your Majesty,

The only way to effectively deal with this is action, of course, as you state. However, I think that offensive action will get ourselves killed, and that the only realistic option we have if we want to survive for very long is to use Thud's plan for a peacekeeping operation.

I only hope that our troops overseas won't be needed back home when the Arabs have Ansars.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	06-06-2003 20:57									#40
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GodKing - well put!

I think we have an opportunity here to repeat the magic we pulled with GoW. After some tense times and communications with GoW, where we each got things off our chest, we eventually got deals done, and relations have improved dramatically afterwards. It was a matter of the teams getting used to one another, and diplomacy styles.

The thread in the public forum is the same thing, but with GS. I am not in favour of further involvement with Vox. If we let them go, we stand a very good chance of very good relations with GS for the following reasons:
-they never had proof that we had any deals with Vox (tech/money)
-we never sent any units over (like GoW did)
-we both "got stuff off our chest" in the forums and then cooled down (don't underestimate this one!)

If we add a luxury trade with them to this mix, we become their best friend on Bob! ND never talks to anyone, and GoW are opportunistic mercenaries, who dropped units on their shore. Lego is all alone, unchecked and scary. If we play this right, we may be able to enlist GS's help/backing in a war against ND - protecting our shores with their galleys while we march north (just one possibility).

I just want people to realize that their is potential benefit from being as courteous to GS as we have been to GoW, Vox, and Lego. We really haven't gotten anything out of our friendship with Vox - I think it is time to let go.

	06-06-2003 23:20									#41
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I hope this is the case, but I distrust Egypt. If they swallow up Persia, they may become unbeatable.

	07-06-2003 00:42									#42
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Togas, I agree with everyone you said, except I must question giving Vox iron. That will certainly make us a target for GS. There is nothing to prevent them from slowing their takeover of Vox, while attacking us at the same time.

This question came up in my head when I read this:

How can GS know that WE are giving iron to Vox?

What I mean to say with this is that there are more sources of iron in this world and there are more tradingpartners too. So GS won't have the idea that it is us who are giving iron to vox, they will most likely scratch on their heads and question themselves who is that person that is trading Iron to Vox.

But imagine that GS would suspect us to trade iron to Vox. We can easily prevent this by starting to support GS on a very, very, very, extremely small basis. If we keep the amounts of gold very small, is is 1) easy to afford for us; 2) a sign of friendship to GS; 3) too little gold to be of use for GS.

They will believe we are their friend and in fact we are truely supporting Vox. it costs but little more than the help we are perhaps going to send Vox.

I can imagine, that this plan will sound very strange to you, but this is real politics: the dirty war.

Whatever you think of this plan, I agree with Togas on his reasons to keep the war going on. We benefit of this war more than any other nation so it shouldn't be stopped. I think it is now time for the ambassadors to discuss plans with our allies to keep the war on. The more players are involved, the better it is.

Be sure that we keep the Bob alliance active. IF GS would decide to invade our country, I would dearly like to see grey and yellow flags on the beaches before Barcelona, Valencia and New Madrid.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza.

	07-06-2003 01:43									#43
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quote: Originally posted by dejon GodKing - well put! I think we have an opportunity here to repeat the magic we pulled with GoW. After some tense times and communications with GoW, where we each got things off our chest, we eventually got deals done, and relations have improved dramatically afterwards. It was a matter of the teams getting used to one another, and diplomacy styles. The thread in the public forum is the same thing, but with GS. I am not in favour of further involvement with Vox. If we let them go, we stand a very good chance of very good relations with GS for the following reasons: -they never had proof that we had any deals with Vox (tech/money) -we never sent any units over (like GoW did) -we both "got stuff off our chest" in the forums and then cooled down (don't underestimate this one!) If we add a luxury trade with them to this mix, we become their best friend on Bob! ND never talks to anyone, and GoW are opportunistic mercenaries, who dropped units on their shore. Lego is all alone, unchecked and scary. If we play this right, we may be able to enlist GS's help/backing in a war against ND - protecting our shores with their galleys while we march north (just one possibility). I just want people to realize that their is potential benefit from being as courteous to GS as we have been to GoW, Vox, and Lego. We really haven't gotten anything out of our friendship with Vox - I think it is time to let go.

I made a nice post an then suddenly I pressed crtl+w. ARRRGGGH

Again.

Good point Dejon. GS could be a worthy friend. The key strategy is but to have friens that are strong enough to support you, but too weak to invade you.
If you don't believe this, ask the American presidents that were in charge during the Cold War or any Soviet leader that is still alive.

I think but that we can help Vox as well as become friends with GS. We have to take the initiative for this. Perhaps make an offer for a cheap luxury trade deal as well, that doesn't really harm us, but shows that we do not concern them as our enemies.

The only way to solve a conflict is to talk, any use of military force will only cause anger at their side. In the midst of a war you cannot enter the battlefield without entering a war. Such is only an option when the pikes are broken and the arrows shot: when both are chort of units.

Keep talking...


I also want to use this post as an opportunity to point on the need of mines for Zaragoza in order to produce units to protect your shores. Señor Dejon must be delighted to hear that I am planning to produce pikemen as soon as Zaragoza has two more mines. Until then we waste 25% of a turn every time we finish a division of pikemen.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	07-06-2003 03:41									#44
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Duke Aidun,

Surely you've read the international discussions. If they find the Persians with iron, they'll know it has been given them from abroad. The most likely suspect in such a case would be Spain.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	07-06-2003 03:48									#45
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[ooc]Allright, Spain is the most likely nation that could give it, but isn't it also true that sources can suddenly pop up and disapear?[/ooc]

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	07-06-2003 03:51									#46
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True, yes. But I believe Egypt has a good idea of the terrain of Persia. They'd certainly notice it.

	07-06-2003 04:14									#47
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The best we can do if we want to help Vox is to keep GS confused

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	07-06-2003 06:05									#48
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Hmm, confusion, deterrent, Iron, which one?

Each has thier benefits and their downsides:

Iron
-Vox can struggle some more against GS.
-However, we don't know if they need the Iron to keep struggling.
-Also, GS will know that it's us

Deterrent
-No actual fighting
-We firmly let GS know we mean business
-We firmly throw away any usefull delaying of Total Stormian War
-Peacekeeping is for nations that already have bases in 75% of the rest of the world, like the US, not for us, goddammit!

Confusion
-We confuse them, firmly letting them know we need business AND that we want to make up
-We might possibly make more difficult the Vox war
-We might delay our own Total Stormian War

	07-06-2003 14:43									#49
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Hmm, confusion, deterrent, Iron, which one? Each has thier benefits and their downsides: Iron -Vox can struggle some more against GS. -However, we don't know if they need the Iron to keep struggling. -Also, GS will know that it's us Deterrent -No actual fighting -We firmly let GS know we mean business -We firmly throw away any usefull delaying of Total Stormian War -Peacekeeping is for nations that already have bases in 75% of the rest of the world, like the US, not for us, goddammit! Confusion -We confuse them, firmly letting them know we need business AND that we want to make up -We might possibly make more difficult the Vox war -We might delay our own Total Stormian War

GS will not know it is us, there's no way to tell AFAIK. If I'm wrong, someone please explain to me the how it is otherwise.

Granted, GS will very likely suspect it is us, but they can not know.

If we give Vox Iron, we should build another Harbor immediately so that if GS come to blockade our Harbor in Barcelona we have another that can continue to supply Vox. The only way that I know that GS can tell it was us, is to blockade our only Harbor and then see that Vox doesn't have Iron on the next turn. So, we either build another Harbor or have enough Galley's to clear their blockade attempts.

	07-06-2003 16:49									#50
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There is one thing we shouldn't forget: our main goal in the game is to to let Spain gain victory over the others.

When we have to build an extra harbor to help Vox because otherwise GS might think we are helping Vox, we have gone too far with helping Vox. Helping a nation is OK to some extend, but keep in mind that we should help Spain first, Vox is still second and should remain second.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	07-06-2003 20:24									#51
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quote: GS will not know it is us, there's no way to tell AFAIK.

I can't remember the details, it's in this or one of the other threads, but it was reasoned only us and ND could trade Iron to Vox.

-Lux can't trade them
-GoW doesn't have Iron
-Lego does/doesn't have an oversea connection? (This was one of the things I couldn't remember)
-ND doesn't have a port?
-We've got a harbor and a well-known extra Iron coming through.
-Vox...
-GS certainly won't

See? They're already suspecting us already!

	07-06-2003 20:58									#52
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Suspecting is something different from knowing, señormitchell. In addition to that GS can't be sure that Vox doesn't have iron or GoW doesn't have iron and whether ND has a harbor or not. The reason for this is because they probably don't have an up-to-date worldmap. Sources of iron can suddenly pop up and disappear.

I have another idea to confuse GS more: if we don't trade our own map and say that we have lost our second source of iron in a way that they believe us, they will be even more confused. Only one person, who is not at the top of the team, like Togas or BigFree could mention.

It would be even better if he would erase his post after a day to let it seem that Togas had become angry of such a major mistake: telling the enemy that we have only one source of iron left.

Aidun

	07-06-2003 23:04									#53
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No, Duke Aidun, you are mistaken. It is clearly evident that if they see the Persians building with iron in future, they will blame someone for it, and the only someone they can blame is us. Iron sources popping up and disappearing would be all too convenient in their minds, and they'd point the figure at the suspect on top of the list.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	07-06-2003 23:29									#54
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Here's what is obvious from the diplomacy screens:

If you have an embassy with a nation (and Vox and GS have embassy connection), you can see that any OTHER nation has a trade deal with Vox. You just don't know what that deal is.

If you go to each nation's diplomacy screen you can tell if they are missing a resource you posess. It will be grayed out if you can't trade it to them, but you at least know they have demand for it.

Right now no one has a trade deal with Vox. What has to happen, if we want to confuse GS, is that ND and us both have to enter into a trade deal with Vox on the same turn ... ND would have to give a luxury, we'd give Iron.

If GS has an embassy with GoW or ND, they will see that the two have a trade deal, they will also see that we have a trade deal with GoW (our silks for wines trade). If GS can't pinpoint who is giving iron to GoW and who is giving iron to Vox they MIGHT not be able to track it back to us, however, if they've been keeping track over time and figured out somehow that ND is giving iron to GoW, then they'll know that we are giving iron to Vox.

It's going to be very hard to deny that we're doing this trade.

--Togas

	07-06-2003 23:47									#55
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Why deny it. If we do it, we can do 2 things.

First, stand proud and say "Here is Iron, now survive and if possible prosper." This will counteract the "sneak" factor each team suspects us of. Just give it and say, "yep, we gave it. So what. What we got in return is a fair deal."

Second, at the same time we give iron, GS will declair war on us. They have to in order to attempt a blockaid. That is the way Civ3 works. But what if we give them something so as to not cause a blockaid? What if we send them some luxurie. I am sure we have an extra one or two. Just offer it to them free. If they question it, say that it is part of the iron deal. They get a lux to keep the iron flowing. If they feel that Iron is so important that they still want to declair war - so be it. They loose also.

	08-06-2003 00:01									#56
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GK, this is an excellent proposal.

IF we end up selling Iron to Vox, we should state so publicly, and you should contact GS to explain to them why we did it, and also offer a gift to GS of a luxury to help ease their fears.

Perhaps tell them that we want to sell them the luxury in 20 turns, but for now, we'd like to give it to them for free to show their people the great benefits of Spanish luxuries.

All this assumes that we end up selling Iron, which also assumes that we receive a fair price for it.

--Togas

	08-06-2003 00:49									#57
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I like this proposal. It will confuse the hell out of GS.

	08-06-2003 00:50									#58
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Good point GodKing

It solves the iron issue, and we win diplomatically !

Great

	08-06-2003 00:59									#59
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I we adopt this solution, we MUST connect a silks luxury and the iron ASAP.

Who can evaluate how long will it take ?

Last edited by astrologix on 08-06-2003 at 01:06

	08-06-2003 03:59									#60
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If we do this, I would prefer we take the course laid out by Senor GodKing rather than any so far proposed.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo