10-06-2003 00:37									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

ToE automatically gives you whatever tech you are currently researching. Therefore, the above states that it is best to time is so that you are not wasting anything. For example you can research sanitation in 5 turns and atomic theory in 10 (I am making these numbers up for demonstration purposes). You are building the ToE, and will have it built in 7 turns. Therefore, if you want to do some research, research sanitation because you will just waste the 7 turns you spent on atomic theory when the ToE is built.

You can also just switch all science to 0 and get lots of gold.

As in the above example you get Sanitation in 5 turns, those 2 turns between building the ToE and completing your research, you should set your tax at the max otherwise you are just wasting resources.

Then, after getting the first tech (the one you were researching), you pick another tech, and presto whamo, you get that one also. Now you pick another tech to research, and all proceeds as before you built the wonder.

To use quotes, type [ and quote followed by ]. To end the quote type [ and / and quote and ]. (Leave out all the ands and the spaces).

	10-06-2003 01:29									#32
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Interesting post, Dominae.

My typically Industrial Age tech progression:

1) Steam Power
2) Industrialization
3) Medicine
4) Electricity
5) Scientific Method
6) Replaceable Parts
7) Atomic Theory + Electronics from ToE
8) Sanitation*
9) Nationalism
10) Communism
11) Corporation, and onward up the line to Motorized Transport. Flight is last if I have the Colossus, otherwise it's Radio. Amphib War & Advanced Flight are ignored.

* - If I have a really large tech & power lead, I may stick Sanitation in at #4, but I tend not to do it because of my dislike of pollution. The longer I can delay that scourge, the better (especially if I have a lead already and therefore do not need the pop boost ASAP). I want my RR net done before I have to deal with massive pollution.

Steam Power is a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned, and I feel similarly about Industrialization. Then it's a beeline for ToE - but Replaceable Parts is also key to speed up those workers & upgrade my musketmen. I usually attempt to time the discovery of Replaceable Parts to coincide with my ToE build.

I do use that wide city spacing you warn against (though it has tightened a bit), so sanitation is a useful thing for me to have. Most of my cities will end up in the 16-22 pop range. I go for Communism because I loathe corruption and because Police Stations + Universal Suffrage = warfighting capability in democracy. The AI often researchs that route, so either I can ride their coattails researching it myself, or I can trade for it or beat it out of them.

If I sell tech to the AI, it is likely to be Medicine, precisely because it is a gateway tech that provides no immediate bonus & because they will pay through the nose for it.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 02:53									#33
	Remove this text

To use quotes you can select the icon for Relpy with quotes. This will open a response window with the post already inserted with the proper characters for quoting.
You will soon be familar with them and start make adjustments.
IOW for a long series of questions, you may want to drop all characters of quoting and use quote symbols to break it up. This lets you put in response after each statement.
I just had the ToE last night in PTW and forgot if you can change the first one or not, sorry.
I do know that the second is what ever you choose from the whats the big picture as always.

	10-06-2003 09:42									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph It's actually the best to research Atomic Theory, even though it's an awfully expensive tech (200). If you time it, that you complete it the same turn like the ToE, you can get Electronics (180) and Radio (200) for free. That's probably the best deal.

I like to do what Sir Ralph suggests, but perhaps for slightly different reasons. I largely put aside the research cost of the three techs at issue (AT, Electronics, Radio) and concentrate on the combo of trading value and research prioritization of the AI. AT and Electronics strike me as undervalued by the AI, even prior to the completion of Hoover Dam, and Radio seems over-valued, especially with the addition of radar towers in PTW (though I haven't evaluated trade value through alexman's AI tech valuation research). If I can research AT before ToE is completed and thereby nab both Electronics and Radio, I can "check off" the southern tier and just race through the northern Industrial Corridor, trading Scientific Method and/or Atomic Theory for tech parity in the northern branch. The end result is that I gain a tech lead in the northern branch (which means the entire age) and still have a comfortable (because it is expensive research) lead in the southern branch. * Sound of door slaming on game * If through some challenge the door doesn't slam, I still have the very expensive and prized-by-the-AI Radio for trade.

Sealing off the southern tier is helpful both from a strategic perspective and from a reduced micromanagement perspective.

Catt

	10-06-2003 10:16									#35
	Got spare money?

Catt and Sir Ralph, I'm confused as to what you both are agreeing on, and why.

Let's say I finish the ToE the turn after I research Scientific Method. And let's say few if no AIs have researched Scientific Method before me. Then I have the following techs for trade: Scientific Method, Atomic Theory, Electronics. This puts me well ahead of the pack through gpt deals and trades for techs in the northern branch. Plus, I can research Radio and be 100% sure to get it first, which is another tech I can trade to the AI when the time comes. To my knowledge, this is the standard strategy when building the ToE.

Now, why is researching Atomic Theory first a better idea? Catt, you mention that Atomic Theory and Electronics are undervalued by the AI, but then describe trading Scientific Method and Atomic Theory for a tech parity in the northern branch. This seems to me like the "standard strategy" I described above. In my experience, Atomic Theory and Electronics alone are sufficient to ensure getting to at least Combustion through trades, given enough trading partners.

If you're really going for the kill, your mission in the Industrial Age is to get all the gpt out of the AIs' pockets. The sooner you can do this, the better, since you'll probably not let go for the rest of the game, and that money has the annoying tendency of getting tied up between AIs. Considerations of AI tech preferences and tech costs seem to me to be washed out by the advantage of getting all that gpt as early as possible. Thus, researching Scientific Method, trading it around on the same turn, and building the ToE the next turn is the best scenario I can think of.


Dominae

	10-06-2003 10:30									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm more on side with GodKing's idea. If you're getting TOE, the most economical thing you can do is time your research so that you finish a research before ToE is completed, then spend the balance of the turns at 0 research accumulating gold.

While you're doing that, you may be able to pick up communism or espionage or some other tech from the AI for a pure lumpsum deal and do some tech brokering. I usually also use my excess cash for loans, earning interest while other AI civs are diverting their research gpt to me.

This is advantageous for several reasons. First, if you are building ToE, you obviously have scientific method. If the AI don't beat you to Atomic Theory, you can just pick it as your researching tech the turn before ToE finishes and follow up your second free tech with Electronics. It gives you flexibility since you can pretty much hit any point on the tech tree to get the tech free.

Edit: Blah, I think I just repeated what everyone said :/

Dominae, I think there is some danger in higher difficulty levels when the tech race is competitive and you may not actually have a techlead.

Last edited by dexters on 10-06-2003 at 10:36

	10-06-2003 10:37									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh, and here's a necessary addendum to my original post:

Kon brought to my attention that Electricity does not in fact double Worker speed. I believe I assumed this because I've rarely not researched Replaceable Parts after Electricity. When writing the article, I tried to think up good strategy that did not incorporate my bias for Replaceable Parts, and therefore recommeded researching Electricity on its own merits. This is a mistake, as Electricity is nothing more than a gateway tech (unless you're playing a very weird, no fresh water world). Admittedly the techs it leads to are very attractive.

Therefore, the question of what to research after Steam Power is not so clear-cut. On the one hand you have Industrialization, on the other Electricity and Replaceable Parts. Let's assume you have "enough time" to get to Scientific Method. Then:

1. If you're fighting a war and have money for upgrades, I think Replaceable Parts is the way to go. Your Infantry will be able to hold the ground while all your cities back home get "industrialized".

2. If you're not engaged in any serious war, Industrialization is better. You'll create an economy that will surely trump the AIs' production advantages.

3. If you think that you can successfully prebuild Factories in most of your core cities before Industrialization (perhaps using Universities), then a "detour" to Replaceable Parts is warranted.

4. If the tech race is relatively tight, you're better off with Replaceable Parts, as Electricity puts you closer to Scientific Method.

5. If you have enough Workers (probably due to slaves) to set up your rail network very quickly, the bonus from Replaceable Parts may not be worth it.

Points 1, 3 and 4 favor the Replaceable Parts route; points 2 and 5 favor the Industrialization route. It's certainly not an easy decision in theory, but the choice should be clearer in any particular game. In any case, unless you're really afraid to lose ToE, I suggest always researching those three techs in succession.


Dominae

	10-06-2003 11:01									#38
	Suffering from ads?

If you're fighting a war, it's more efficient I think to prebuild ToE as you research Scientific method or likely before then. Ideally, you should be able to finish ToE a turn or two after you get Scientific Method, then just grab atomic theory and replacable parts.

The timing may be an issue, and it really depends on what kind of war you're fighting. I think going the SciMethod > Atomic >Electricity route is deriable to many because you've got Hoovers coming up, massive production boost. Which can prove more decisive than anythign you put on the battlefield.

	10-06-2003 11:36									#39
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Let's say I finish the ToE the turn after I research Scientific Method. And let's say few if no AIs have researched Scientific Method before me. Then I have the following techs for trade: Scientific Method, Atomic Theory, Electronics. This puts me well ahead of the pack through gpt deals and trades for techs in the northern branch. Plus, I can research Radio and be 100% sure to get it first, which is another tech I can trade to the AI when the time comes. To my knowledge, this is the standard strategy when building the ToE. Now, why is researching Atomic Theory first a better idea? Catt, you mention that Atomic Theory and Electronics are undervalued by the AI, but then describe trading Scientific Method and Atomic Theory for a tech parity in the northern branch. This seems to me like the "standard strategy" I described above. In my experience, Atomic Theory and Electronics alone are sufficient to ensure getting to at least Combustion through trades, given enough trading partners.

Yeah - didn't make my thoughts very clear and I'm not sure they are very clear. If ToE is or will be yours, you secure a good lead in the southern branch. Trading can bring you to tech parity in the northern branch and then its just a race down the Industrial Corridor sucking gpt from the AIs. But if the tech race remains at all close in the northern branch (not uncommon, in my experience, if one or two AIs are at least competitive) then your exit from the Industrial Corridor at Combustion / Mass Procuction opens up various potential tech paths -- AI research choices become less predictable at this point whereas such choices are obvious (and dictated) in the Industrial Corridor. The AIs may go for any of Flight, Motorized Transportation, Radio, or even Amphibious Warfare. With the southern tier completed through the Radio acquisition from ToE, you can concentrate on MT and then research or trade for Flight -- you can deliberately withhold Radio from the AIs and make them research it on their own.

Since the combo of Scientific Method, AT (and Electronics if necessary) should always be sufficient for tech parity trades in the northern branch, whether the Ai has researched through Combustion or only Refining, Radio almost always comes across as gravy -- in other words, whether a pre-build timing allows or doesn't allow for native research of AT and subsequent ToE gifts of Elec and Radio, you should always be in a position to trade for tech parity north, and any native research on the northern branch instead of on AT may be "wasted" since profitable trades for any northern branch tech should be available following the completion of ToE. Without Radio, given the somewhat less predictable AI research choices, you run the risk of losing a race in any of the southern (Radio), central (MT) or northern (Flight) branches. With Radio, you can more often safely pursue MT and vault into the Modern Age following a trade for Flight, leaving the AIs to research Radio, MT, or both.

Still don't feel like I'm being clear (or that my observation is accurate), but getting Radio without expending research time for it seems to substantially strengthen one's ability to suck gpt for techs from the AI without opening the door to a multi-branch tech race. I'll try to time a ToE pre-build to coincide with my completion of Scientific Method and happily take AT and Electronics for free -- but given the opportunity to research AT before the ToE build completes, I'll generally take it, get Radio for free, and still trade for parity in the northern branch but with the cushion of Radio as an ace in the hole.

Catt

	10-06-2003 11:40									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by dexters If you're fighting a war, it's more efficient I think to prebuild ToE as you research Scientific method or likely before then. Ideally, you should be able to finish ToE a turn or two after you get Scientific Method, then just grab atomic theory and replacable parts.

My only real quarrel with this is that I will almost always (in all but the tightest tech races) prioritize RP over Scientific Method -- the AI simply doesn't beeline hard enough for SM and ToE to dissuade me from getting RP as soon as possible in the Industrial Age. Infantry, artillery, and improved worker speed are simply too powerful to forego RP unless a very palpable risk of losing ToE to an AI looms.

Catt

	10-06-2003 11:55									#41
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Good point there

	10-06-2003 19:29									#42
	Tired of ads?

I understand your strategy re: researching Atomic Theory now, Catt. I'll have to try it out next time.


Dominae

	11-06-2003 07:08									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dominae If you're really going for the kill, your mission in the Industrial Age is to get all the gpt out of the AIs' pockets.

/Voice of Lawrence Fishburne from 'Searching for Bobby Fischer'

"Theah it is!!"

/end LF

Dominae, you might want to quote yourself and edit the first post.

Nailed it, hole in one.

TOE, Radio, Industrial Corridor... pick a card, any card, this is the research / trade Pillar.

	11-06-2003 07:48									#44
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Dominae, you might want to quote yourself and edit the first post.

All this discussion has made me realise that my initial post needs heavy updating (already!). Should I edit it, or just leave the additional good stuff (from everyone) in the replies?


Dominae

	11-06-2003 11:09									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If I get a vote, I would say repost it with the edits.
This leaves the original dialog in place, but provides a final (semi final) version for easy refernce.
In the past a lot of good thread has gone to seed, because they had too many post for people that came later to read. If the had a summary of all the good points for them, it would be a nice quick reference.
Vel come back.

	11-06-2003 13:39									#46
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Dominae, I'd actually suggest you put the stuff into a word file. Something people can hold on to and just focus updating that.

	12-06-2003 02:23									#47
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Dominae, I noticed a blind spot in your thinking. You keep talking about prebuilding factories while waiting to research Industrialization, but what happened to the possibility of doing prebuilds for factories while beelining to Industrialization? Granted, there are times when a player is too busy with a war or some such, but it should often be practical. (Most of the time, my "prebuilds" for factories are strictly accidental; I get Industrialization and generally switch cities from whatever they happen to be working on at the time.)

	12-06-2003 02:44									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I would say, leave your top thread the way it is, but edit in a line saying that this was the initial discussion with a link to a new thread. The new thread starts with your revised and updated, and it also has a link to this thread. That way, it is current and updated, but you leave the history intact in case if anybody wanted to look back and read all of this (say, once conquest comes out and perhaps there are enough changes to make another revision appropriate.)

Just an idea.

GK

	04-07-2003 20:07									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Very good thread, On deity i research scientific methods
first instead of replaceable parts because i can out researche the AI on this tech.(Ai's go for replaceable parts) i can then trade scientific methods for replaceable parts. scientific methods is the first tech i research on
this level(apart from alphabet) having bought all the others

	05-07-2003 02:01									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I rarely start prebuilds for factories, but I would not oppose the idea. I just have too many things to do at that stage. I will switch what ever is going on to factories, unless it is a critical build.