10-06-2003 21:31									#31
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Portugal is our smaller neighbor, monk.

	10-06-2003 21:32									#32
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I don't think we have to go as far as Kosovo. From my knowledge of history, I can't see any reasons why France shouldn't be declared co-victor of WWI... but maybe somebody will enlighten me.

	10-06-2003 21:34									#33
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Portugal participated in WWI on the winning side.

Actually this came as quite a surprise to me when I found out. I wonder how much combat the Portuguese saw during those years.

	10-06-2003 21:37									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Fez You know every morning I wake up and say "Thank goodness I am not French. I never understood our disfunctional neighbors. How could anybody be proud of a country that hasn't won a single war in the 20th century?"

You are right (WWI does not count). But even if we had won a war, preferably not a civil one though, this is not the reasons why we can be proud of France.

I will not bother to tell you what these reasons are, their access is restricted to those able to understand and appreciate.

	10-06-2003 21:39									#35
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Some 680 detainees from 42 countries are in Guantanamo, categorized as unlawful combatants by the U.S. government.

This "unlawful combatants" business is yet another stain in US history.

	10-06-2003 21:40									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Portugal participated in WWI on the winning side. Actually this came as quite a surprise to me when I found out. I wonder how much combat the Portuguese saw during those years.

Portugal did? Hmm.. did Spain participate? I am not so sure about WWI.. I think like Argentina we stayed neutral.. but I will have to recheck that.

Davout, are you proud to be French?

	10-06-2003 21:40									#37
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We definitely won WWI, allied with other countries, but we paid an huge price for this (more than 6 mil. deads).

quote: Portugal is our smaller neighbor, monk.

Yeah, that's what we say about Spain too, sometimes

	10-06-2003 21:43									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Menlas We definitely won WWI, allied with other countries, but we paid an huge price for this (more than 6 mil. deads).

Yes you did but you needed a lot of help. I think France fought with great bravery in WWI. I don't know what happened in WWII.. I guess just being exhausted of war.

Being tired of war is the reason why we did not get involved in WWII. We had a bloody three year civil war.

quote: Yeah, that's what we say about Spain too, sometimes

Well my mom told me when she was my age, she remembers Frenchmen throwing Spanish products into a river near the border. Is this still true?

	10-06-2003 21:47									#39
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Why not be proud to be French? A nation's pride need not and should not rest on military conquests, but on history and culture. France has one of the greatest cultural histories in the world. There's a reason why French was the language of refinement and diplomacy throughout Europe for a long time.

If you disagree with France's positions now, so be it, but it's pretty lame to tell French people they should be ashamed of who they are for some reason. I'd rather be French than Congolese at the moment.

	10-06-2003 21:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Screw the French.

You'd rather those Americans be caught in the middle of a firestorm?

Try and show a little gratitude, at least for the French soldiers who acted heroically. Maybe you can separate your bile for France from the actions of individual French?

THANK YOU to the French for saving those American lives.

Gee, that felt nice!

	10-06-2003 21:54									#41
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thank you france - you are still our ally.



That does not mean its not rational to punish them in some form. Clearly for the French to suffer no consequences for their actions in winter of 2003 might tend to encourage them and other states to take similar actions in the future - which if you share the admins view of US interests and possibly necessary future actions, would not be a good thing.

But that does NOT mean its rational to treat France as an enemy, or even as a neutral. Being a strategic rival AND being an ally are not incompatible. I wouldnt think id have to point that out here where most of us are civ or smac players. I would point to real world examples, like the western-russian relationship during ww2, or even the US - UK relationship during WW2.

France and the US still have many overlapping interests, from Afganistan to order in west africa, to the growth of the world economy. But that also does not mean we need to gloss over our disagreements, and realize they extend far beyond Iraq.

I would also point out another way im happy for france - one of the reasons France was as opposed to the Iraq war as she was, was fear of violence from her own muslim population - far larger and less assimilated than the US muslim population. AFAIK there has been no outbreak of violence in France since the war began - and I am glad of that - such violence would in no way serve the interests of my country.

	10-06-2003 22:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Davout, are you proud to be French?

From my point of view, one can only be proud of what one has accomplished, therefore as it took 1000 years to build this country I cannot be proud of what it is today.

But I am happy to be French, I enjoyed it consistently, and above all I respect and admire the great guys who really did the job. And although I like the USA and (most of) its inhabitants, I would not change my passport for a US one.

	10-06-2003 22:10									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT From my point of view, one can only be proud of what one has accomplished, therefore as it took 1000 years to build this country I cannot be proud of what it is today. But I am happy to be French, I enjoyed it consistently, and above all I respect and admire the great guys who really did the job. And although I like the USA and (most of) its inhabitants, I would not change my passport for a US one.

pah! you sound like a German!

	10-06-2003 22:10									#44
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Okay I have no problem with one being happy with ones nationality. I am myself if you haven't noticed. I just disagree with many of the positions taken by the French government.

	10-06-2003 22:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by oedo pah! you sound like a German!

Now where is Echtelion...

	10-06-2003 22:15									#46
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still sleeping I guess.

	10-06-2003 22:17									#47
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quote: Originally posted by oedo still sleeping I guess.

He promised me if I visit Germany he would take me out to the best bars...

	10-06-2003 22:20									#48
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in Cottbus?

well, I think we lost the topic. let´s keep on bashing the French, which means, I´m outa here.....

	10-06-2003 22:29									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This "unlawful combatants" business is yet another stain in US history.

Nonsense. Read the Geneva convention it is all there in black and white. The whole thing is perfectly legal and sanctified by international agreement even if some people choice wish it weren't.

	10-06-2003 22:37									#50
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Ignore him, Oerdin. As a PRC apologist, his biggest hobby is taking potshots at the USofA, hoping it will make the PRC look better.
[/threadjack]

to the French for helping out US civilians. Thanks from this American.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 23:23									#51
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From the other thread...

quote: Originally posted by me : What's so special about saving innocent civilians? Should we make a new topic every time when similar situations occur? Spamfest.

	10-06-2003 23:26									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ignore him, Oerdin. As a PRC apologist, his biggest hobby is taking potshots at the USofA, hoping it will make the PRC look better.

Guilt by association.

	10-06-2003 23:28									#53
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[continuing threadjack]
I think that UR was just attention-whoring, to challenge viewpoint which seemed to be shared by all posters of that topic.

Don't hold it against him (her?).

	10-06-2003 23:33									#54
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Tom: Whats so special about saving innocent lives? Because the FRENCH saved AMERICANS, despite American claims that France is an enemy of the US.

It's not the saving innocent lives part (Unless it was, say, North Korea saving Americans) thats special about this.