14-06-2003 17:01									#91
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I hope you have changed your email address which, if i remember correctly was riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiich@h
otmal.com


and you have written that in your CV.


makes employers go iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiik

better change it

	14-06-2003 17:13									#92
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erm, about the initial post i'd say that if you really been looking for a job, say so.

complete honesty may not always be the best responce but i believe in that case it makes no real difference.


_so what have you been doing the last 7 months?


_i've been searching to find a job that fulfills my expectations (criteria talents education whatever)


add that line to slightly flatter them while at the same time justifying in part the long time you've been searching.


work on that phrase since english is not my first language but hopefully u get the gist.

bon chance

	14-06-2003 22:54									#93
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I hope you have changed your email address which, if i remember correctly was riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiich@h otmal.com and you have written that in your CV. makes employers go iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiik better change it

So I should change thatguystu@hotmail.com from my CV as well?

	14-06-2003 22:58									#94
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I changed my email address a long time ago, I now use iwanttofvckthepope@whoresrus.com

and don't post your email address on a bulletin board like that Stew, spambots pick it up...

	14-06-2003 22:59									#95
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director@fbi.gov

	14-06-2003 23:08									#96
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Don't use that address any more Provvo..

	14-06-2003 23:09									#97
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I didn't think so...

	16-06-2003 14:10									#98
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If you are offered a job on the Wednesday afternoon, the same time as the interview, how long do you think is a reasonable length of time to consider that position before accepting or rejecting?

	16-06-2003 14:15									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Well that job just rejected me without offering me an interview down near you. It seems like there is no such thing as a chance...

Still only one job isn't it.

	16-06-2003 14:24									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch If you are offered a job on the Wednesday afternoon, the same time as the interview, how long do you think is a reasonable length of time to consider that position before accepting or rejecting?

I think you should lock up the offer, but ask for a written contract with all the agreed upon terms for review. This probably gives you somewhere between 72 hours to a week to make your final decision.

Unless they already have the contract drafted, which means they are desperate and you should regret why you didn't ask for more in the first place.

	16-06-2003 15:10									#101
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Well I didn't want to accept the job until I had the results back from another firm with far better potential (both long and short term). So I'm not going to accept the job on offer and then reject it later.

I spoke to the recruitment agency this morning ~9am, they said the people who offered me the job were "cheesed off" that I hadn't accepted straight away, and "quite annoyed" that I hadn't accepted by Friday last week. They said that they would offer the job to someone else unless I responded there and then, because I spent to long considering. This is two full working days after the interview!

I said I would have to reject the offer because I wasn't particularly impressed if that was the firm's attitude and I would prefer the other job if I am offered it. They promptly said I am the second choice for that job and would have to wait and see if the other applicant wanted that position. They said I should take the job on the table. This struck me as an odd thing to say, but I simply said I can't accept this position.

What happened next really pissed me off. The guy said (paraphrased) "If you don't accept this job you probably won't be able to find another one *two seconds pause* anytime soon. I've sent your CV off to all accountancy practices in London and the southeast and these are the only two replies. I got you a job but now I'm going to lose out on the commission fees because your hoping for something better *two seconds pause*, oh well, its not the end of the world."

I really felt like telling him to "**** off", instead I said "Well, let me know what the other firm says and I'll speak to you later"



I'm now in a position where I don't trust the agency at all. I can't tell them to get lost until I know where I stand with the other job in the pipeline. And to top it off, it I got a letter from the head office of the agency asking "Now that you have a job we'd like to know how you rate our service". Presumptive much?

	16-06-2003 15:21									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Well I didn't want to accept the job until I had the results back from another firm with far better potential (both long and short term). So I'm not going to accept the job on offer and then reject it later.

If I were you I wouldn't worry much about this. This happens all the time to companies, that's why they always have a second choice just in case.

	16-06-2003 15:22									#103
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In my experience agencies are lying, moneygrabbing, cheating scumbags and in the current climate they are really suffering.

We were going to offer a guy a job here and the agent came back saying he demanded more money which we said no to. When the guy later phoned back for feedback about why we'd rejected him it turned out he'd never heard about the offer and the agent went behind his back, trying to bump his fees up.

Can you talk to the company direct?

	16-06-2003 16:54									#104
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I would say that one of the most important things to pick up in the interview is to show that you can offer the company something new. This gives you the possibility to lead the discussion, shows your interest in the field, and overall shows you are a bright person.

In accounting, you could ask them what their IAS-strategy is, tell them that you'd like to hear more about their reporting routines, and tell how you'd like to try to improve them (company Intranet, e-mail). Talk about the risk of "information overflow" and how good you are at making reports that are manager friendly (graphs with nice colours, automatic highlighting of important figures in a big table etc). Make sure you convince them that you see accounting not as number-crunching, but as a tool for decision-making.

The nice thing with all this is that you can talk about it quite a lot without actually having to show any concrete evidence.

	16-06-2003 22:12									#105
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Why are you using an agency? You are an idiot to do so. There incentives are different. think about the biz situation. Do a Porter's model.

	16-06-2003 22:18									#106
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I am currently working for an agency and I wouldn't if I had the choice...but the fact is I have to take work where I can get it. It does annoy me how much the agency is getting paid for my hard work And the company annoys me that despite my hard work and brains and decisiveness and leadership and ingenuity, they are still not prepared to give me a permanent contract, despite the fact that if I leave they are in the sh*t...simple fact is, I am waiting for a better offer, but I still feel betrayed...

	16-06-2003 23:02									#107
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Cry me a river. You got to stop whining, PH. Nobody owes you a living. Even if you got that piled high and deep, nobody owes you ****. All you get is what you can command from selling yourself. Work on the product or work on the sales. But quit whining.

	16-06-2003 23:12									#108
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Oh come on off it, you know as well as I do that this isn't true...I see imcompetents at high levels who get their job through (a)being related to someone in the company or (b)f**king the boss. Don't be so naive...

	16-06-2003 23:37									#109
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I also know that you whine like a baby. Really.

	16-06-2003 23:43									#110
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No, I've seen the only way to succeed is to f**k your way to the top or have nepotism on your side. Personnel departments are the most incompetent of the lot - they seem to expect perfection yet are the most useless bunch of sh*ts in existence...that is the way the world works my friend, not through some magical utopian meritocratic method...

	16-06-2003 23:54									#111
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quote: Originally posted by GP Why are you using an agency? You are an idiot to do so. There incentives are different. think about the biz situation. Do a Porter's model.

Why disregard an avenue of opportunity. Agencies are free (in a sense) and provide a few extra opportunities that I would not otherwise have found. I don't like them, and I always was wary of (but now simply distrust) them. But other than that you can still use them as part of the searching process. For its not as if I'm not searching through job ads, sending speculatives and using the old foot in the door through nepotism tactics, and more. I'm using any and every means at my disposable.

	17-06-2003 00:41									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison No, I've seen the only way to succeed is to f**k your way to the top or have nepotism on your side. Personnel departments are the most incompetent of the lot - they seem to expect perfection yet are the most useless bunch of sh*ts in existence...that is the way the world works my friend, not through some magical utopian meritocratic method...

It's a bit of both. You have to look good in management's eyes, that's true. It's not purely based on ability but it's the same for everyone in every job. You just have to deal with it, play the game and get on. If the money really is that bad and they really can't get on without you then leave (or threaten to). If you are as indispensable as you think then handing in your resignation letter will have an effect.

	17-06-2003 01:58									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Why disregard an avenue of opportunity. Agencies are free (in a sense) and provide a few extra opportunities that I would not otherwise have found. I don't like them, and I always was wary of (but now simply distrust) them. But other than that you can still use them as part of the searching process. For its not as if I'm not searching through job ads, sending speculatives and using the old foot in the door through nepotism tactics, and more. I'm using any and every means at my disposable.

1. I would suggest reading Rites of Passage at $100,000 plus for some information about search agencies, their incentives, practices, pitfalls, etc. There is a place for headhunters in your search, but I suspect you have not really thought it thorugh in a sophisticated manner.*


* The HH has much less incentive than you do to place you in the job that you want o be in or to help you get the extra 5,000 bucks. He's way more worried about losing the commission overall than about getting a slightly larger comission based on higher first year comp. Your incentives are different, proviedd you are resonably marketable, which you are.

-----

I was being provocative, because you're one of the poster's I most admire. (And I did way overstate the case, just for shocke effect.) But really, do a little more reading on HH effectiveness. I've done 3 involved career changes and learned a lot about their usefulessness and how they can often distract you from a better career search.

--------

Oh...and read the Parachute book. The data is US, but the basic insights are very good.

	17-06-2003 02:01									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison No, I've seen the only way to succeed is to f**k your way to the top or have nepotism on your side. Personnel departments are the most incompetent of the lot - they seem to expect perfection yet are the most useless bunch of sh*ts in existence...that is the way the world works my friend, not through some magical utopian meritocratic method...

I never claimed the world was a meritocracy. I just think you keep expecting Mommie to interced and make people play fair. If stuff sucks where you are, start slutting around for other work. And maybe a quick look at the man in the mirror wouldn't hurt either.

	17-06-2003 02:10									#115
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No, this is what I mean, the world isn't perfect...it's like walking down on an up escalator, that is what I mean...there is no such thing as a chance. And a look at the man in the mirror? I don't see the problem...

	17-06-2003 02:29									#116
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The world is not a perfect meritocracy. Granted. There is not such thing as a chance. Bullkaka. Get off your ass and go travel. Go conquer a small Central American Nation. Make love to Hindu princesses.

Or failing that, move to the place where the biotech jobs are...

	17-06-2003 02:31									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison And a look at the man in the mirror? I don't see the problem...

You're a better man than I am then, Gunga Din. And just about everybody else in the world. Seriously, you can't think of anything to do to bring your game up? You are the Michael Jordan of biotech but the coach just won't play you enough?

	17-06-2003 03:06									#118
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To be fair to PH, the job market is total crap here in the UK. Since I started my last job a few years ago I saw the companies falter sector by sector, starting with manufacturing and knocking on into the services, and eventually my firm was hit at the tale end of last year.

PH is right that finding a job is a nightmare, for two linked reasons - companies and firms are not increasing recruitment for financial reasons, and people are staying in their current jobs when they would normally have moved onto bigger and better things. This leads to the effect that new jobs are not being created even though unemployment hasn't actually increased. I don't know what the statistics are, but I would bet that in the past year the average length of time a person is unemployed has gone up, the overall unemployment has remained relatively constant and that the numbers in part time employment is up.. That's my grass roots view.

In such an environment its no surprise to me that Rich can't find a permanent job in Hull/Yorkshire. I can't find a decent one and I have the whole of London as a place to look.

That said, I do think it is too easy to use that as an excuse for not being able to get a job and not an impetous to put more effort into finding one. I feel that getting a job in this climate is not really about ability, its about being the right person at the right time. What you have to do is get noticed such that you are there when the job arises. You've got to be in it to win it.

	17-06-2003 03:11									#119
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I agree. Throw multiple lines into the water. You will catch a fish for sure. But imho HH are distracting. You are better off making a list of your contacts and calling ten a day. Or even just going throught the phone book or what have you.

ARe you just looking for the same job as before or are you open to changes in career? For instance being on the finance/CFO track inside a company? Maybe a science-related company would be agood match? I might know some people. Dish...

	17-06-2003 03:25									#120
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I've applied for commercial and practice environments, managerial through graduate positions, financial, accounting, research and marketing roles etc.

I'm working a broad base, and tailoring my CV to the firms or companies I am applying to. Ideally I want a job that allows me to finish my qualification, then I can do anything I want knowing that is under my belt. I will accept any permanent job that gives me a good career grounding or part-time one that keeps things ticking over.