11-06-2003 16:17									#31
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By the way, I forgot to mention it, but I moved our spare settler last turn to where we can position him for our northeastern desert city (7 from the northernmost mountain by Hurricane) this turn and found the city next turn if we want to.

	11-06-2003 16:25									#32
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Vox pulled a fast one and I almost missed it. One of the spearmen on I8 was on I8-9 last turn, and the spear in Elipolis pretty much has to be one of the two that had been on I8. Did they just change their minds, or are they trying to create an illusion of more units than they really have? In the latter case, a strike deeper into their core looks even better.

	11-06-2003 17:47									#33
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Good catch Nathan!
Yes, it does seem to improve the prospects of a deep strike.

	11-06-2003 18:18									#34
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Could someone post or PM me the password for our turns? I've long forgotten it. Thanks.


Dominae

	11-06-2003 18:27									#35
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Sent

	11-06-2003 18:40									#36
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Thanks, Sir Ralph.

When did RP move their Palace?


Dominae

	11-06-2003 18:52									#37
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Recently... a turn or two ago.

I say we do a landing and see what happens... if we need to evacuate, we can evacute.

We definitely need our cats up north now.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 18:58									#38
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I guess that they want to pull their units back to the core, so that spearman on I89 had nowhere to go but the hill on I8, and I suspect the only reason they didn't stick both spears in Elipolis is that they wanted to make taking the hill cost a bit. A landing behind Eli outflanks them, forcing them to pull those spears back. That still only leaves them with 3 spears plus whatever help can be pulled in from BbtS or HH - probably warriors at the moment. The Eli attack might still be viable, but a shot at their core now might be more productive, especially if they are flooding units south to try and hold Eli long enough for their stacks to get past Inchon.

Did they really move their warrior on the mountain at I32 to I332, moving it further away from Inchon? If so, it looks like they want to get the warriors to D'ville - looking for the give away town trick to move them north, and use a quick iron trade to upgrade them? That would also give them all the D'ville pikes in The Voice next turn, able to move to defend their northern towns the turn after. That's probably going to happen before we can land up near Miller Town - although we can hope that they haven't got enough pikes to defend two towns adequately, giving us a shot at one of them.

If we go for the landing behind Elipolis, that gives us the option of moving back on the boats to head north if they keep D'ville, or try and take Elipolis while it is still relatively undefended if they abandon D'ville.

	11-06-2003 19:17									#39
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I believe they're planning on moving all their forces into Eliopolis, and gifiting it away. That would put a relatively major obstacle between us and the end of Vox, since we would have to go completely naval, and they have enough units to cover every coastal tile north of the chokepoint.

Assuming I'm right about Eliopolis, I think we should make a move for Beta-by-the-Sea immediately. We land 2 Pikemen on the hill south of it (hopefully there will not be a unit there, and if there is we can always just unload as a diversion...their Immortals only get to move on Roads the turn after next). All other units go into Inchon to brace for an attack, although I doubt it will come. When we see that their Immortals are in fact making a run for Eliopolis, we move everything we can muster to join those two Pikemen. We can then grab Beta-by-the-Sea and have a nice foothold behind Eliopolis.

Oh, and now that we've taken care of all Voxian forces near our core, we should think of what we want to do with all our units that have nothing to do anymore.


Dominae

	11-06-2003 19:27									#40
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Why would they gift away Elipolis? It's the strongest point in their defence, once they get some troops into it. And once they are past it, they are only 2 turns away from most towns, 3 for the furthest ones. That only gains them 1-2 turns moving to get to the north, where we don't currently have any troops. Eli is the town they need to keep to have a strong defence (it gives them more spare troops for everywhere else in their core).

	11-06-2003 19:30									#41
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I'd guess that we want to move most of the eastern units into galleys to sail up to Inchoff to clear out the immortals, or continue further north to give a second landing in Vox's core between The Voice and Harry's Hideout, just to give them more to think about.

We do need some defenses around the core in case of surprise naval landings, but with out galleys everywhere we should get a few turns warning to prepare before anything bad happens.

	11-06-2003 19:42									#42
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Why would they gift away Elipolis? It's the strongest point in their defence, once they get some troops into it.

The problem for them is that we have super-Galleys that can strike basically anywhere at any time. They would have to spread their forces very thin to protect everything. Sure, they could have a major bulhead at Eliopolis, but that's useless when all their cities behind the bulkhead start falling.

So, they make a deal with, say, Glory of War: "We gift you Elipolis in exchange for X (whatever)". All their troops get teleported back to their capital, and in two turns they are immune to naval invasions. After that they can build a few more troops, regain control of Elipolis and fortify it.

The team that offers assistance could even finesse us diplomatically by saying that they're "on a peacekeeping mission to ensure Big Bad Gathering Storm does not wipe out Poor Defenseless Vox". We would have to declare war on that team to get through Eliopolis, making Eliopolis far better-defended to Vox than any number of Pikemen.

I honestly think this is their best bet for survival. It would be very bad for us. We need to take some cities behind the chokepoint now.


Dominae

	11-06-2003 19:53									#43
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Well if they gift it to GoW, we don't have to declare war. And if they gift it to someone else, we take the city, refund any money stolen from their vaults, throw in 50 gold for good measure, and apologise profusely whilst explaining that no way where we going to let that stop our invasion of Vox, since the recipient team has no business being on our island.

Might not go down too well though...

EDIT: it would work better if we contacted the team, explained what Vox had done, and offered them 50 gold for the city (plus whatever gets stolen from their vaults, so we don't have to wait a turn for them to gift the city to us) (or we say we are prepared to buy the city even though we could take it, and ask what they want for it). If they agree, all well and good. If not, they lose those 50 gold (but we still ought to give some compensation).

Last edited by vulture on 11-06-2003 at 20:01

	11-06-2003 19:55									#44
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Plus, they can't really do that before they get all their units to Elipolis, and they are 3 turns away from that right now, unless everyone is going to turn around and go back to D'ville and await magical transportation via gifting from there.

We still have a small window of opportunity on Elipolis, I think. Not that I have the save to really know what is going on...

	11-06-2003 20:02									#45
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quote: Might not go down too well though...

Exactly. They're betting we will not declare war on another civ at this point, even if it is just to take one city.

In any case, the opportunity is there to grab Beta-by-the-Sea. Why not make a lunge for it next turn?


EDIT: Oops, sorry Dominae - meant to reply with quote, but hit 'edit' instead. Have attempted to put your post back how it was.

	11-06-2003 20:11									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Exactly. They're betting we will not declare war on another civ at this point, even if it is just to take one city. In any case, the opportunity is there to grab Beta-by-the-Sea. Why not make a lunge for it next turn?

That's a gamble I wouldn't be willing to take if I were them - if I were in Vox, I'd guess that the net result would be that GS controls Elipolis, but has worse relations with everyone else as a consequence. I don't think the trade-off is worth it unless they are convinced they are going out of the game and want do as much damage as possible before that - which doesn't appear to be their mindset yet.

On BbtS - if the attack on Elipolis is judged too unlikely to succeed, then Bbts makes sense as the next target, giving us a staging area to bring in more troops to finish them off.

	11-06-2003 21:17									#47
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I wouldn't take it if I were them either.
I think that they still believe that there is hope for peace with them still on this continent. They know that such a move will kill every last chance they have for survival on this continent - let's hope that by the time that they realize that we are committed to driving them off of our continent one way or another and go radical, it will be too late for them.

	11-06-2003 21:23									#48
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I went ahead and went with a large-scale landing behind Elipolis: two pikes, three MedInfs, and two WCs. That should go well with our words about no peace on our continent, I hope. We have a complication, though: Vox has a regular galley at E4, and RP has a vet galley at E4-7. I'm going ahead and sending the turn, but it will be this evening (U.S. time) before I have time to send out shots.

	11-06-2003 23:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay ....RP has a vet galley at E4-7. ...

I hope this galley is just mapping a trade route. Maybe this will help us avoid having to trade our WM.
We should bring it up in discussions with RP. As long as it is a single galley, I have no issues letting it through our costal waters. We will have to leap frog defensive units in our costal towns and keep one turn ahead of them. We also need to keep one or two offensive units within striking range incase they land any troops....

Mss

	12-06-2003 00:00									#50
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Hmm... do we really want to allow other civ's ships into our waters?

My gut reaction is no. The reason we won't trade our map is that keeping our map to ourselves helps us defend ourselves. There is a LOT of valueable info that could be gleened via a galley going 'round our coast.

Then again, trying to stop them will 1) probably piss them off; and/or 2) require military action - whether this means setting up a blockade or actually sinking their galley.

-Arrian

	12-06-2003 00:00									#51
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quote: I went ahead and went with a large-scale landing behind Elipolis: two pikes, three MedInfs, and two WCs. That should go well with our words about no peace on our continent, I hope. We have a complication, though: Vox has a regular galley at E4, and RP has a vet galley at E4-7. I'm going ahead and sending the turn, but it will be this evening (U.S. time) before I have time to send out shots.

You mean on E7?

I don't think we finished working on our manuever- and why only 3 Med. Infs, we'll need at least 4 to have a decent chance at the city.

What of the other two Med. Infs, are they gonna sit doing nothing while the attack takes place?

I think it was way too premature to play send the turn.

	12-06-2003 01:04									#52
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I agree that it was premature, but it was also what I had time for. I couldn't have counted on getting back this evening in time to finish it within the 24-hour limit, so I did the best I could under the circumstances.

I view the move to threaten Elipolis as a feint, not as a serious attempt to attack the city. From there, we can either take our troops on to Wittlich or pull them back to Inchon.

	12-06-2003 02:27									#53
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If we send 6 units to Wittlich/Miller Town, how many empty Galleys does that leave us to sink Vox's ship (if they don't run... which I would from all our Galleys)

Do we think we could get a chat with Vox? If they really are leaving our continent, that changes things greatly. I think most of us are in favor of peace if they give us their land, right?

	12-06-2003 02:31									#54
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The 2 WC's was genious IMO (or a lucky accident ). We can leave 1 WC to move 9 and cut the road, cover with a Pike. Pillage the road at the landing site with the other WC, then move it into the ships with the rest of the units. That leaves Elipolis with no road connection to the N for certain, it means we beat Vox's units N for (almost) certain. (RP could possibly help block us from landing Wittlich)

	12-06-2003 02:32									#55
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You bet I am in favor of peace on those terms...

This is dreamy- Having our own island, without much bloodshed.

	12-06-2003 05:03									#56
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Or GLs.

	12-06-2003 13:18									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Or GLs.

We were lucky to get one.

	12-06-2003 14:55									#58
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Are the WCs we landed behind Elipolis elite?

If so, and the forces in Elipolis are the ones we've seen (1 fortified vet warrior, 1 fortified vet spear, 1 vet spear, 1 reg spear) then we have an 81% chance against the town.

If they've managed to get a second veteran warrior in there, we have a 51% chance. A third, and we're down to 16%.

No extra warriors, but one extra reg spear (I'm assuming they preferentially sent their vets south to upgrade to pikes) gives us 46%.

We're looking at 1.5-2 units lost on average.

If we think it is likely that they haven't put any extra units in, it is worth going for. Otherwise I think that the pillaging, followed by a bigger landing next to the worse-defended Beta-by-the-Sea makes more sense.

	12-06-2003 17:13									#59
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quote: Are the WCs we landed behind Elipolis elite?

I think so.

If peace with Vox looks like it's going to happen, I wouldn't mind hitting Elipolis just for the 2 shots at GL's. Otherwise I think it's probably better to head up further N with the Galleys.

	12-06-2003 19:23									#60
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We'd presumably be dealing with a minimum of one fortified vet spear and two unfortified vet spears. Yes, both WCs are elite.

I think it would be in horribly bad taste to attack a city just because we think a peace agreement is likely. Consider the propaganda mileage Vox could get out of it if we attack after Vox agrees to the basic principles for a cease-fire that we set forth.