11-06-2003 20:46									#31
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If they exist, some would be benevolent and others would be malevolent (in our eyes and according to our morality, of course). Can't be much different from humans in that respect, I'd suppose.

	11-06-2003 20:53									#32
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We have destroyed too often primitive people only by the contact of our technological civ, that I hope that in case we would discover aliens not as advanced as we are we would not contact them immediately, only in order not to harm them. And I believe that advanced aliens discovering the Earth would do the same. They would observe in taking great care not to interfere. And this observation period can last millenia if the cultural gap is big enough, which I believe too.

	11-06-2003 20:55									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian They could have a totally different ethical code than we do (leaving aside for a moment that we humans do not have 1 ethical code), which allows them to "morally" do nasty things to us. After all, we kill each other, why shouldn't they kill us? -Arrian

That might be.
And after all, for example noone cares if someone kills a cockroach.

Maybe for those Aliens Humans are the cockroaches of the Universe

	12-06-2003 04:49									#34
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Theyd be more inclined to be nice, because if they were benevolent, they would have most likely destroyed themselves.

Ummm....benevolent is being nice/peaceful

quote: In order to develop tech to travel between stars, its reasonable to assume they develop tech to harness huge amounts of energy. Warlike people will turn this into weaponry and could destroy themselves. We only recently passed that test in october 1962, and we're not out of the woods yet!

So, they could be like us. Wasn't that my point?

	12-06-2003 05:03									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Flare Let us go into space & find out, shall we?

My point exactly. Just like in colonial times, whoever does the exploration has the upper hand. I know i won't see it in my lifetime, but i hate to think that in future humanity may just see fit to stay put. Of course, the chances of being visited by aliens are really quite remote, so we don't need to start hurling ourselves into deep space just yet

	12-06-2003 05:09									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns They would probably treat the planet as a big zoo, charging their own kind huge amounts of money to come look at us, but not allowing us to expand to any other planets.

That is my guess as to what aliens are doing NOW. Not a zoo as such, more of a game preserve...

That is, if you believe aliens are visiting us now.



ACK!

	12-06-2003 05:09									#37
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Most likely, we would not have a clue about their intentions and neither would they have a clue about ours. We have no idea how many frames of referrence we would share with them, and the fewer that we shared, the harder it would be to actually ever understand each other.

	12-06-2003 05:18									#38
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I do believe it to be peaceful. Of course like someone said, there are no guarantees that because one hasnt destroyed oneself that means one is peaceful, but I would have thought it to be a good indicator of that. In terms of natural resources, organics would presumably be easily made, thus inorganics would be more easily harvested and accessed in asteroids, so I dont believe natural resources to be an issue. In terms of human resources, and intellectual resources, keeping people free and equal generally creates a more innovative workforce. Slavery is inefficient in the long term, if one wants to have progress, we humans dont make very good ants. Therefore, they would make contact presumably if they wanted something from us, trade or cooperation etc. They would only do so when we are at a sufficiently high level, until then, our only value might be scientific or anthropological. Thus we would have a situation like star trek: first contact.

	12-06-2003 05:21									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Maybe not. Perhaps they want to install a benevolent dictatorship - so the first thing they do is round up all civil servants, politicians, soldiers and kill them (no need for them, you see).

That's benevolent??!!! I'd hate to see their malevolent relo's, then

quote: They might be benevolent to some, but to all? How's about the xenophobic morons who don't even believe there's life outside their home town, let alone another country or another planet?

There's life outside my home town?! I have met people like that....

Them: "Where're you from?"

Me: "Woy Woy"

Them: "Wee Waa?! That's a long way away!" (it was about 50 miles away)

Me: "No. Woy Woy"

Them: "Wee Waa?"

Me: "No, NOT Wee Waa. WOY WOY"

Them: "Woy.....Woy? Where's that??"

Me: "Near Sydney"

Them: "Sydney?! You mean the big smoke?!!"

Me: "Yeah"

Them: " We've never been to the big smoke before! "

One of them: "I've been to Tamworth!" (Megatropolis of 30,000 people/sheep. Home of country music in Australia. Say no more)

This was when i moved to a place in the NSW wheat belt called Moree. I was stunned to find that most kids had never been much beyond the town limits. If aliens ever visit us, i hope they land there

	12-06-2003 05:30									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless I have reservations about the likely benevolence of aliens. So our own history tells us that we will always develop technologies which secure our position at the top of the food chain, but the spear is sufficient for supremacy over non-humans. More sophisticated weapons are needed only against human enemies. Many intelligent but peaceful races may have achieved supremacy over all other life forms on their planet, and then simply ceased developing beyond that point: their equivalent of "spear mastery". More aggressive races, however, would be more likely to get involved in an "arms race" leading to high technology, because they're always up against enemies comparable to themselves. They may be disproportionately more likely to become spacefarers if they DON'T destroy themselves.

A typically logical and wise reply, Jack You said it better than i can. My point was that our assumptions based on Star Trek and the like are likely to be way off the mark, such as the assumption that they would be one people. The biggest surprise to most people would be the likely diversity within any alien population. Ever seen a blonde Klingon on Star Trek?

	12-06-2003 05:36									#41
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quote: Ever seen a blonde Klingon on Star Trek?

Those Bolians are HOTTT!!!

	12-06-2003 05:37									#42
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quote: Ever seen a blonde Klingon on Star Trek?

See that episode with "the albino"? I used to be a trekkie when I was a kid

	12-06-2003 05:41									#43
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Further Discussion Topic:

If NASA announced that a Fleet of now less than 100 1 km long spaceships were heading past Saturn towards Earth, would you come to the conclusion that it was an Invasion/colonization Fleet?

	12-06-2003 05:44									#44
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Assuming the speed of light is the "speed limit" of the universe, I doubt alien life forms would visit us. I read a good Carl Sagan novel about how we would go about detecting life on other planets. Most likely, I think we would see robot probes of alien creation before any aliens. And even then, we'd probably take them off-line and study them rather then let them function as they were designed. IMO, I think that intelligent life is too far away for us to ever have contact. At best, we will probably encounter some ancient radio traffic or ancient probes.

But, for argument's sake, if aliens detected us, I doubt they would attempt to make contact. They would probably remain undetected and study us. If they were able to understand our language, they would probably hack into our computer networks in an attempt to gather data. I can't really form a decent theory on what their motives or attitudes would be. It would depend on the environment in which they came from. Due to the costs involved, from our point of view, any visitors would probably be in search of knowledge. I doubt Earth would be a target for resource exploitation, it would require a massive commitment in order to "harvest" Earth, and if they had the capability to do so, I doubt they would even need our resources. It's not like Earth has anything that isn't in massive abundance throughout the universe.

	12-06-2003 05:44									#45
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Id **** a brick, because a force of that size is most likely invasion or colonialisation... although it would put a rather large fly in the Americans ointment so it cant be all bad jk.

We'd most likely face small numbers of ships, or maybe even one, but still, one cannot assume anything about the fleet until they make their intentions clear.

	12-06-2003 05:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Further Discussion Topic: If NASA announced that a Fleet of now less than 100 1 km long spaceships were heading past Saturn towards Earth, would you come to the conclusion that it was an Invasion/colonization Fleet?

With that kind of commitment on their part, I doubt any resistance we put up would be effective.

	12-06-2003 05:50									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sava With that kind of commitment on their part, I doubt any resistance we put up would be effective.

On the other hand...it MUST be a colonization/invasion first, which mean that orbital bombardment is (somewhat) unlikely, as said Aliens probaly want to retain Earth in a state that helps with colonization.

(Scorching large sections of the planet wouldn't do that)

	12-06-2003 05:55									#48
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A more ineteresing question is, if we get to travel between the starts, will we be benevolent or malovolent vis a vi some less advanced alier race?

Oh, and why always assume man is way behind? Maybe we haven;t heard other aliens cause we are the firts in this neighborhood to start beaming radio waves around.

	12-06-2003 05:57									#49
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Maybe.

	12-06-2003 05:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar On the other hand...it MUST be a colonization/invasion first, which mean that orbital bombardment is (somewhat) unlikely, as said Aliens probaly want to retain Earth in a state that helps with colonization. (Scorching large sections of the planet wouldn't do that)

If they are anything like us, they'd probably send massive quantities of biological weapons down on us. Some sort of bioengineered pathogen that would annihilate us, while being relatively peaceful to plant life.

But I think a massive fleet like that just wouldn't be practical, and highly unlikely. Considering how rare technologically capable life is on Earth, I also doubt that life forms like us would exist close enough to us that they'd even be able to detect us. Think about the timeline of humans, the timeline of our use of electricity. A few hundred years compared to what, 3 billion years of life on Earth. Technology-bearing life forms like us are rare, relatively speaking.

	12-06-2003 06:01									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If they are anything like us, they'd probably send massive quantities of biological weapons down on us. Some sort of bioengineered pathogen that would annihilate us, while being relatively peaceful to plant life. But I think a massive fleet like that just wouldn't be practical, and highly unlikely. Considering how rare technologically capable life is on Earth, I also doubt that life forms like us would exist close enough to us that they'd even be able to detect us. Think about the timeline of humans, the timeline of our use of electricity. A few hundred years compared to what, 3 billion years of life on Earth. Technology-bearing life forms like us are rare, relatively speaking.

My Scenario, by the way, is based on Harry Turtledove's WorldWar series, when an Alien Fleet arrives in 1942, *astonished* that mankind advanced so much between the 12th century and 1942 (The previous 2 races they encountered, plus themselves, advanced very slowly, technologically speaking)

	12-06-2003 06:01									#52
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quote: Oh, and why always assume man is way behind? Maybe we haven;t heard other aliens cause we are the firts in this neighborhood to start beaming radio waves around.

Good point. We are obviously the first kind of life form to have technology on Earth, I suspect any such other life forms are so far away, we'll become extinct before detecting each other. And assuming the universe is infinite, having existed forever, it's reasonable to assume such beings have existed before and have been long gone.

Also, if we go by what Einstein says, the range that we (or any other intelligent life) could ever hope to travel is small, considering the size of what we know as our region of the universe.

	12-06-2003 06:07									#53
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quote: My Scenario, by the way, is based on Harry Turtledove's WorldWar series, when an Alien Fleet arrives in 1942, *astonished* that mankind advanced so much between the 12th century and 1942 (The previous 2 races they encountered, plus themselves, advanced very slowly, technologically speaking)

I haven't read that, sounds interesting though. But I doubt that we have truly advanced that far. There are still people in Kentucky that don't have running water.

	12-06-2003 06:10									#54
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Why would reserach be so slow paced? This is another common theme, that somehow humans advanced atypically fast. I don;t get it. Once we overcame disease, our popuation exploded, growing exponentially. Why would our technological advance not keep up with out popuation growth? Slow until you get to a specific barrier, then let loose.

	12-06-2003 06:14									#55
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Well said, Sava.

I read somewhere, that the difficulty in finding another intelligent alien race is that we not only have to find them in space, but in time as well. When you multiply the distant odds of either with each other, it starts getting really remote.

In other words, if you found another planet with life on it, the chances are that either intteligent life has not yet evolved, or has already annihilated itself or evolved into something beyond our comprehension.

	12-06-2003 06:16									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I haven't read that, sounds interesting though. But I doubt that we have truly advanced that far. There are still people in Kentucky that don't have running water.

Socially, we may not have progressived to the best point possible. But Technological? We've advanced quite a bit, and could certainly fight a guereilla war if need be.

	12-06-2003 06:23									#57
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why would reserach be so slow paced? This is another common theme, that somehow humans advanced atypically fast. I don;t get it. Once we overcame disease, our popuation exploded, growing exponentially. Why would our technological advance not keep up with out popuation growth? Slow until you get to a specific barrier, then let loose.

Because their planets Were large Desert planets with not much in the way of natural barriers. As a result, their culture unified and Homogenizaed fairly early. The situation was the same on the other two systems "The Race" conquered (except they were at Iron and Bronze age levels, as opposed to the Race, which had reached early 21st century, war techwise, before it unified.)

No Competition= slow growth.

Remember, Nescessity is the Mother of All Invention. In the WorldWar series, the Race's Invasion force had became so "flexible" by Race standards, they were treated with contempt when the Colonists arrived. Eventually the colonists started to change too, and Earth (Tosev) was treated with contempt by the rest of the Empire.

(They have sublight speeds, the Homeworld is Tau Ceti)

	12-06-2003 06:24									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lung Well said, Sava.

thx

quote: I read somewhere, that the difficulty in finding another intelligent alien race is that we not only have to find them in space, but in time as well. When you multiply the distant odds of either with each other, it starts getting really remote.

quote: In other words, if you found another planet with life on it, the chances are that either intteligent life has not yet evolved, or has already annihilated itself or evolved into something beyond our comprehension.

Who's to say Earth hasn't been visited in the past? I think life in the universe will be quite common... by using Earth's history as a benchmark, intelligent, technologically capable beings will be rare. I think that overall, the search for other intelligent life will be the key motivation behind any deep space research projects that aliens participate in. If we're to go by Einsteinian physics, traveling vast distances will take a really long time. And if I understand the laws of thermodynamics and various other theories, going into deep space would be really difficult. Most likely, probes would be doing the traveling. And they would most likely not be under direct control due to the distances involved, what with the amount of time it would take to relay instructions to a probe over light years.

	12-06-2003 06:27									#59
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i've been over this a lot with my buds, we love debates that go nowhere.

the general cosensus is you cannot assume anything, because you would be dealing with, well, an alien midset, in both meanings of the word. their evolution may have been different than ours, and certain traits may have been weeded out / let to grow. maybe early in their evolution they learned that sharing their resources makes more of them strong enough to fend off predators, strength in numbers. maybe communism works for them

one of my friesnts says thats what he loves about the movie "Signs", the fact that even at the end of the movie, you have no idea what the purpose of the aliens was. they came, gassed some people, and kidnapped others, and then just left. you can't objectively evaluate alien motives / attitudes because you're using a human midset as the frame of refrence.

as for the converse, ie, we find sentient life on another planet, we'd probably screw it up and end up at war. what if we found a plaet that has achieved world peace, ad has destroyed all their weapons? easy to roll over.

i don't know, honestly. i know, as a respectable member of the human race, that i would think we would be peaceful and benevolent to alien cultures initially, but if stargate has taught me nothing, it's not to trust aliens, especially really friendly ones.

	12-06-2003 06:29									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Socially, we may not have progressived to the best point possible.

you damn commie!

quote: But Technological? We've advanced quite a bit, and could certainly fight a guereilla war if need be.

Not really. We've only had 200 years of real technological growth. I doubt it would compare to a race which has had 10's of thousands of years to create technology.