13-06-2003 06:16									#31
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Sounds cool. I'll have to give this size19 thing a try. I generally just go by my own rule of thumb, which can range by good to not so good, depending on how things go.

Anyways, Yaweh, your query reminded me of an old game I played. Attached is a picture of the my invasion.

In my case, I was playing huge 16 civ map and my target, the Rome small continent empire had a monopoly on furs. Ceasar pissed me off one too many times by demanding this and that for his furs so I decided to relieve him of his burden.

In my case Rome was on an island way off from the may continents. It was behind techwise. As you can see, I had already reached RP and combustion at this point.

Two key mistakes I made:

1) To invade their 10 city empire, I arrange for 5 galleons (20 units) of Cavalry and Knights and about 5 or so Infantry (mostly regulars).

2) I landed on the rougher end of the continent with a lot of mountain ranges. This allowed the Romans, with their pitiful band of 1 or 2 Cavalry, and legionary (yes legionary) to mount successful counterattacks and effectively made the job of my offensive Cavalry and Knights about three times as difficult. As you can see, I took two cities and it stayed that way for quite a few turns until I was able to get fresh troops and eventually rushed an airport and airlifted a few tanks to clear the Romans away.

In the end, I had to use about 5 tanks to finish the job, my cavalry was just not in sufficient numbers and my Infantry units, while defensively capable, had to be used as offense to clear out roaming bands of outdated units threatening the much coveted furs which the Romans had denied me for so many turns. But because of this, they were picked off by the remaining enemy units. This was classic Black Hawk Down style scenario as I was genuinely surprised by the spped in which outdated units just tore through my infantry.

It was a humbling lesson in naval invasion and one I've learned from.
----------------------------

Two advantages play to your favour here

1) The terrain you are invading is relatively flat and with the exception of Bablyon, I don't think any of their cities are built on hills. Good news for the offense. Also, the flat terrains gives you distinct advantages when it comes to picking off their stragglers and their stacks. As long as you have sufficient defensive forces that fortify on hills and at key points to create "bases" where your offensive cavalry can retreat to, your offense has a big advantage here.


2) They don't have muskets or Cavalry. The Rome I faced, while weak and technologically backwards had a few muskets in about a third of their cities and had a few Cavalry as well.


One disadvantage I spot here is that when you land, you can very well expect to see muskets soon, if not the very next turn. Since PTW (I think, but it may have been put in as early as 1.29f) The AI do a relatively good job of grabbing the best defensive tech in the market and upgrading or rush building these units. Be prepared for that.

Arrian's Suggested 9 galleon landing fleet will provide sufficient initial numbers for you. And given the short distance you have to travel, having 1 or 2 gellons at any one time reinforcing your invasions should be more than enough.

Attachment: 1725romeinvasion.jpg
This has been downloaded 94 time(s).

Last edited by dexters on 13-06-2003 at 06:23

	13-06-2003 19:22									#32
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Dexters, thank you for your sound advice. I took the time to invade China (about 10 turns total) and still Babylon has yet to discover invention. Still, 3 of their cities are size 11-12, and Arabia next door, which has made demands of me, has chivalry and gunpower both. I have yet to build a single galleon, though 4 will be ready in about 5 turns, and ready to sail in, um, 10?

I can't recall off hand how much gold I have left... about 1500 I believe, after upgrades. Sure, say it everyone: I should have not upgraded my defensive units and used that money to BUY GALLEONS instead. I know this to be true. Still, I think I have enough money to buy 3-4 galleons and begin my conquest of Babylon with 2 3-cav armies + scores of veteran and elite cavs in a few turns.

Rather than taking the Southernmost city, I was thinking about taking 1 or 2 of the smaller, upcoast cities, and then moving down to Babylon and the other biggies. The only problem is that these positions will be harder to hold, especially if the already "annoyed" Arabs decide to get involved.

Still, China is under my belt and I have about 30-40 cavs ready to go somewhere else.

Another option is, of course, the Ottomans, who have gunpowder but don't have any horses! I'm sure they could import some, but it might be worth hitting them before they get MT and the dreaded Siphai.

But suppose I make them my friends, conquer Babylon, and then give the Ottomans horses + MT to help me annex Arabia?

So many choices. I just have to pick one and roll with it in sufficient time before everyone's too well defended.

	13-06-2003 21:29									#33
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I do not recall where this came from originaly, but it is a layout for nearly ever city size one could want.
If you load it to paint and overlay the grid, you can see the tile spacing.

Attachment: patterns.bmp
This has been downloaded 21 time(s).

	14-06-2003 00:31									#34
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quote: 30-40 cavs

... can do a LOT of damage. Even against riflemen-defended cities. You're up against pikemen (Babs) and muskets (Arabs).

*sounds bugle* CHARGE!

Sure, those Ansars pose a problem due to their mobility. There are two responses:

1) Take your time, bringing lots of musketmen with you to absorb Ansar attacks and then finish any survivors with your Cav. Cut their resources ASAP and then mop up. You're a Monarchy, so WW isn't a concern.

2) Say to hell with the Ansars, Cavs have a 3 defense, and so what if you lose some? Pump out even more than you lose, and just roll right over the Arabs. They won't have much time to build reinforcements, and thus their GA won't help them. If things go really well, you could end up taking less casualties this way than with the more cautious approach.

I mix and match the two styles, depending on the situation (if I see the opportunity to go for the jugular right away, I'll expose my Cav to counterattack. If losing a few cavs on defense means I can crush an opponents' core quickly, so be it).

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 00:36									#35
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So fancy-pants, what should I do about the Galleons? Buy 'em? Wait 'til they're built?

I will probably do as you say, but those Babs have traditionally always been a real pain to conquer. Don't know what it is about 'em... maybe I've just been unlucky every time. They seem to have the RNG God on their side.

The other option is to do Ottomans, then Arabs, than Babylonians. But I like those Ottomans so much. They're always so kind to me. And they don't have the Pyramids, like the Babylonians do.

	16-06-2003 19:47									#36
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Insofar as the game I've been referencing might interest anyone:

I assembly a group of 10 galleons to ferry over as many cavs and musketmen as they could carry. I lost 1 cavalry in the entire campaign and faced not one musketman!

Moral of the story: It pays to attack before the enemy has gunpowder.

After I had Babylon, I took out Arabia and then the Ottomans. They were long wars, but using Babylon as a base and constantly supplying my new continent with cavalry, it was all in day's work (literally. The whole thing took about 4 hours to play out! ).

I wish I had invaded earlier, but still, I think my overwhelming force was valuable... the Babs might very well have acquired gunpowder in desperation and built a few while I held back knight-based counterattacks (if, say, I had invaded with 7 cavs and 1 musketman).

	19-06-2003 21:30									#37
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Chop the forests, too.

Try Son of SVC for early inter-continental invasions.