14-07-2003 17:20									#91
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You're in the same time zone as a few of our players.

You can alway post in the Setting Up IP games threads in the MP forum.

RAH
Check it out.

	22-07-2003 20:39									#92
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In recent months I have started gleefully foresting wheat squares in order to take advantage of the trade boost given by silk. I'm not too fond of the food specials to be honest, and would much rather have some trade or shields that I can use from the off and still maintain a steady population. A food special isn't really worth the square it's occupying if you have a few grassland squares around as they'll grow your city quite nicely by themselves. A mined and roaded oasis isn't too bad, but I've never understood why oases don't get a trade bonus instead of one of the food. They were trading centres after all.
I'd recommend foresting your wheat to everyone - at least try it and feel free to leave the wheat like that in future games if it doesn't go as well as you thought but give it a go. You'll reap the benefits long-term, with the major drawback being the time spent converting. This is best for an OCC as your second settler just stands around for many years once your improvements are done, but I say the sooner the better!

	23-07-2003 06:57									#93
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I am a huge proponent of "The Four W's"

1. Wine
2. Wheat
3. Whales
4. Weed

You can't lose!!!

Come visit my Germans during Octoberfest!!!

	23-07-2003 07:53									#94
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What could a weed resource give you? Negative three food?

	23-07-2003 09:25									#95
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I'd recommend foresting your wheat to everyone

Silk is nice but the wheat is useful for quick city growth in a representative government. Food specials are the key to larger cities before it's possible to irrigate everywhere or construct harbours.

------------------

SG(2)

	23-07-2003 20:51									#96
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Hmmm, Wheat or Silk -- Wheat allows an extra specialist (or two) compared to the many extra arrows of silk. Might be a phase of the game thing -- early in the game a few arrows difference can be dramatic, whereas later on the food might be more valuable.

Even for OCC, the Wheat could mean two extra specialists after farms -- if the city can still use them, I might go with the wheat at that stage. Three extra base arrows look a lot smaller with size 20, 30 (I saw a post with size 45) trade routes.

I rarely convert one to the other -- (usually have more important things to forget.)

	23-07-2003 20:53									#97
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Greetings, this is my first post here at Apolyton!

It looks to me as if this thread has split into two separate questions: Favoite early game special, for growing your cities before improvements come into the equation and favorite late game special, when the engineers have improved the squares to max them out.

Early game is easy: Whale me! Only silk comes close to the all around utility of the great aquatic mammals and that one less food really hurts growth before you get some grassland irrigated.

Later in the game, the issue is a lot less clear. I think even without the airfield cheat, wine has to be the choice. Once mined, it produces one more shield than silk.

Several posters have discussed favorite special in terms of the specials which they like to create with engineers/settlers. The change of special I do most often is pheasant to buffalo. Pheasants are good little producers, but can only be improved by railroad. Bufs, by contrast, can benefit from irrigation, roads and railroads, giving them one less food (equal w/farm), One more trade (two more in representative gov, 3 w/ superhigways) and one more shield. Phaesants never produce trade and I really do not like non-trade producers!

	24-07-2003 00:37									#98
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A Pheasant in a river tile, on the other hand...

A long time ago I read a mathematical comparison between Silk and Wheat. Does anyone remember where that link was? Silk will have 3 more trade arrows, but Wheat can generate 5 more food sheafs, which equates to 2.5 more specialists. In a full SSC (Colossus, Rep/Dem, size 20+, Copernicus, Newton, Library, University, Superhighways), how does that compare in terms of number of beakers? And should the additional shield production be factored in too?

	24-07-2003 08:34									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Elok What could a weed resource give you? Negative three food?

Sure, but you get WLTHD (We Love the Hippie Day)

	24-07-2003 12:14									#100
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Elephant,

I don't remember having read that thread, but here is what should happen in a fully developped SSC:
Let us start with 10 beakers
Library = +0.5 (=15b)
University = +0.5 (=20b)
Research Lab = +0.5 (=25b)
Isaac (doubles the effect of improvements, contrary to what is written in the manual) = +1.5 (=40b)
Copernicus (doubles Science, contrary to what is written in the manual) = 80b
In other words the multiplier is 8.

1) Wheat
A specialist brings 3 beakers/turn, which means 3*8 = 24 beakers/turn in the SSC described above.
Therefore 2.5 specialists bring 2.5*24 = 60 beakers/turn.

2) Silk
With the slider at 100% research, 3 trade arrows = 3 beakers.
Therefore 3*8 = 24 beakers/turn

(I wish to mention that Super Highways have no direct effect on research: they provide one more trade on any land square already producing 2, some sort of Colossus #2, no effect on the above calculations)

	24-07-2003 12:19									#101
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Rereading my post, perhaps it would be better to state that 3 arrows from silk become 4 arrows with SH

	24-07-2003 12:22									#102
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I forgot to write about shields: of course they should be taken into account (otherwise DaveV will get very angry at us ).

	24-07-2003 13:31									#103
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette 1) Wheat A specialist brings 3 beakers/turn, which means 3*8 = 24 beakers/turn in the SSC described above. Therefore 2.5 specialists bring 2.5*24 = 60 beakers/turn. 2) Silk With the slider at 100% research, 3 trade arrows = 3 beakers. Therefore 3*8 = 24 beakers/turn

You don't seem to be making any allowance for:

a) the extra arrows from larger trade routes with silk;

b) the extra beakers from larger delivery bonuses with silk.

Assuming these factors don't make a significant difference, La Fayette, 1st Marquis of Aployton's calculations suggest that you should convert the silk to wheat just before the city size reaches it's maximum. Presumably, the converse true - until the SSC reaches max, you should convert wheat to silk?

RJM at Sleepers

	24-07-2003 20:44									#104
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette (I wish to mention that Super Highways have no direct effect on research: they provide one more trade on any land square already producing 2, some sort of Colossus #2, no effect on the above calculations)

I think SH would have a major effect: it produces 50% more trade, not just one more, which Roads does. So Roaded Wheat, with Colossus and Rep/Dem, has 3 Trade, while Roaded Silk has 6. With SH, Wheat would have 4, while Silk would have 9.

I think DaveV expressed Shields in terms of Gold, but I dont know if he had a way to convert that to Beakers.

	24-07-2003 20:55									#105
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Buffalo, Pheasant, Iron, Coal, basically shield generators. Buffalo was easily my favorite.

	24-07-2003 21:52									#106
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1) About shields:
We discussed that, DaveV and I, a long time ago, and agreed that 2 or 2.5 gold/shield is generally the most reasonable to assume (since you need 25 gold to buy a row of 10 shields, and 2 gold when there is 1 shield left to buy in a row).
1 gold = 1 beaker is what you get when you move the tax slider (without improvements, of course ).

2) About trade routes and bonuses:
Of course they are very important! (OldnSlow(?) sent an example the other day where more trade was derived from routes than from working all squares in the city radius: IIRC three '45 trade' routes ).

3) About Superhighways:
Of course they are very important! (provided that many squares already produce at least 2 arrows before you complete SH).

4) About 2.5 Einstein:
If you already have 16 Einstein busy in your SSC, 2.5 more bring nothing.

Conclusion:
I tried to answer the question asked by Elephant:
"How does that compare in terms of beakers in a full SSC?", but I tried to make a short answer and that was not a good idea.

Let me try a summary #2:
1) Wheat is worth 2.5 Einstein, which means 60 beakers in a full SSC, unless the SSC already has 16 Einstein (or could have them without wheat): wheat is worth nothing special in that case.

2) Silk is worth 3 more arrows, which means 24 beakers directly, but in fact much more than that if one takes into account the effects of SH, and the influence of those 3 arrows upon trade routes and bonuses.

	25-07-2003 01:13									#107
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Working from La Fayette’s data, it looks like the silk could generate up to another three arrows if all the trade routes are so affected -- which means that it looks inferior if Einsteins can still be used. On the other hand, if the city has maxed out its effective specialists, then silk looks to be the better way to go.

The extra shield or two might "break the tie" depending on the threshold of the city as a whole (especially if it moves production up from 48 to 50.)

	25-07-2003 02:25									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow The extra shield or two might "break the tie" depending on the threshold of the city as a whole (especially if it moves production up from 48 to 50.)

Silk provides 2 shields, which means 3 shields with RR.
Then factory may bring +0.5, so would Power Plant and Manufacturing Plant. Global multiplier = 2.5 (with all 'industrial' improvements).

In that case, silk brings 3*2.5 = 7 shields (rounded down IIRC).
Then, if you agree with DaveV and I, you would say that this corresponds roughly to 7*2.5 = 17 beakers

	25-07-2003 12:41									#109
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette 1) Wheat A specialist brings 3 beakers/turn, which means 3*8 = 24 beakers/turn in the SSC described above. Therefore 2.5 specialists bring 2.5*24 = 60 beakers/turn. 2) Silk With the slider at 100% research, 3 trade arrows = 3 beakers. Therefore 3*8 = 24 beakers/turn

quote: Originally posted by Elephant I think SH would have a major effect: it produces 50% more trade, not just one more, which Roads does. So Roaded Wheat, with Colossus and Rep/Dem, has 3 Trade, while Roaded Silk has 6. With SH, Wheat would have 4, while Silk would have 9.

If Elephant is right, La Fayette's figures can be re-calculated. Silk with research at 100% provides 40 extra beakers per turn whereas wheat with a minimum of two additional specialists is worth at least 48 beakers per turn. So La Fayette's conclusion still stands. However, is it realistic to assume that Collossus is still operating when we are building Superhighways?

RJM at Sleepers

	25-07-2003 15:20									#110
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Of course it's realistic! To get the most out of your SSC, you delay Flight for as long as possible. After combustion, instead of choosing Flight and spoiling the (by now) wonderful effects of the Colossus, you go to Automobile and get to build SHs, which effectively give you two Colossi in the same city. Then by taking the research path all the way to Computers, you can further boost your research with the labs and that ought to take away some of the pain of having to research flight and lose the Colossus.
I realise that this is just one way of playing, and that depending on what your game target is then you may take a differnet research path, but this is damned good for a game you're using to build a decent score.

	25-07-2003 18:50									#111
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I think that if we work the calculations through, we’ll see the values switch back and forth -- i.e. early in the game, unroaded silk; roaded silk without trade routes, with trade routes, etc. compared to roaded & irrigated wheat (without specialists) etc.

Without doing the math, silk seems to have the edge until one can gain the extra specialists, maybe even until farms.

In any event, I don’t think that the marginal gains from one over the other are worth the transaction cost of switching back & forth during the game -- at best, I see switching once & staying with the change.

	25-07-2003 20:35									#112
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If 'the proof is in the pudding', CFC's GOTM30 is a nicely timed test case: the SSC (New York) has one Silk and two hidden. I'm not done yet, but I'll try to write up a summary of the different stages of Grass/Silk/Wheat.

	25-07-2003 23:54									#113
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IMO the main factor to be taken into account, when choosing between Silk and Wheat, is food provided by the other squares in the city radius.
Food shortage (or a lot of engineers work ahead to avoid it) = choose Wheat (remember all those poor SSC desperately in need of engineers to grow quickly)
Food surplus (not eaten within the next few turns by the predictable growth of the city) = choose Silk

My calculations were meant to provide the basics. IMO they are worth no more than that (because you easily enter endless discussions if you try to combine factors: just about the same as if you try to apply time value of money to rational choice of investments in civ ).

	26-07-2003 01:31									#114
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Shogun Weed special! Member of a new third Special class
Produces:
no shields (everyone too unmotivated to work that hard)
no food (everyone gets the munchies)
3 trade
The same in all terrains
(except grassland, and ocean where it appears as Pearls: 1f, 3t)

quote: Originally posted by Wharf Rat Greetings, this is my first post here at Apolyton!

Noob alert! I mean, Welcome!

quote: Later in the game, the issue is a lot less clear. I think even without the airfield cheat, wine has to be the choice. Once mined, it produces one more shield than silk.

Yeah but Transforming to Hills and mining takes too long (as shown well back in the thread), especially if you've already got Wheat or Silk.
( both require 2 rounds of Engr Trans @ 20/2 turns effort, plus mining at 10/2 turns effort, not to mention the time spent as mere grassland after the first Trans…)

	26-07-2003 01:40									#115
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quote: If 'the proof is in the pudding', CFC's GOTM30 is a nicely timed test case: the SSC (New York) has one Silk and two hidden. I'm not done yet, but I'll try to write up a summary of the different stages of Grass/Silk/Wheat.

That's easy. You're going to start with mining the grass to Silk. 10 turns effort, best return on investment. From there, as somebody already said, you have more important things to forget than swapping out Silk for Wheat…

	01-08-2003 22:39									#116
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Just posting some notes on the Grass/Silk/Wheat issue:

Early/Mid game, Republic=80%Sci, SSC size 25, Lib,U,Cope,Newt:
- Silk generates 7-9 trade arrows, including TRs, which generate 36-42 beakers
- Scientist generates 18 beakers each
- Grass/Plains generates 3-5 trade arrows, which equates to 15-24 beakers
(more data coming soon)

	01-08-2003 22:46									#117
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quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers b) the extra beakers from larger delivery bonuses with silk.

This is the one that I am having the hardest time quantifying. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

	13-08-2003 23:17									#118
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Later-Mid Game: Democracy=100%Sci, SSC sz 25, same Imp/WoW:
- Silk generates 8-9 trade arrows, or 48-54 beakers
- Scientist still 18 beakers each
- Plains 3-5 arrows, or 18-30 beakers

End Game: Democ=100%, SSC sz 30, add SuperHighways, ResearchLab, Colossus cancelled:
- Silk has 10-12 trade arrows, or 82-96 beakers
- Scientist now 24 beakers each
- Grass/Plains 4-6 arrows, or 32-48 beakers

I want to go back and investigate the short period between getting SH and RL but before Flight cancels Colossus, but the time scale on that is pretty short. It just looks good as the SSC has maximum number of trade arrows.

I'm still noodling over how to quantify the extra shields and bigger delivery bonuses of Silk vs Wheat. My gut feeling is that in early-mid game, gold is tight so go for maximum delivery bonuses; later on, once Refrig and SuperMarket add extra food, increase the Scientists in the SSC to get at least one tech per turn from city beakers using non-specials, then convert the Silk to Wheat as a last resort. Timing all of that takes lots of planning, though...

	13-08-2003 23:19									#119
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Oh, and the loss of city beakers due to increasing Luxury rate for celebration needs to be factored in too.