17-06-2003 03:02									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Are you kidding me. It was the only time in our history when people were swimming the Rio Grande in the other direction.

He's got an especially bad rap because of the whole hostage thing at the end of his presidency but he was a pretty good president. Whatever you think of his politics hes probably one of the only statesman who you could say was an honest and good man without cracking a smile. Quite an accomplishment.

	17-06-2003 03:05									#92
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He was the kind of man who gets in fights bygetting backed into them. I never flet more danger of nuke war than in 1979-80. By 83, the dynamic had changed and we had the whip hand...

	17-06-2003 03:43									#93
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 He's got an especially bad rap because of the whole hostage thing at the end of his presidency but he was a pretty good president. Whatever you think of his politics hes probably one of the only statesman who you could say was an honest and good man without cracking a smile. Quite an accomplishment.

Being a teenager during his presidency one of the memories I had of him was his big smile. ( ) I believe it is easy to say he is our best former president because of his accomplishments after leaving office.

	17-06-2003 03:49									#94
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He's big on the habitat for humanity thing

I sure would like to get one of those houses for cheap though

They are on a project right now building houses for the poor along the Georgia/Florida state lines.

And Jimmy Carter is right there as well. He orders people to keep working

	17-06-2003 04:01									#95
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Lincoln, inarguably. Without him, there would not be an America.

	17-06-2003 04:03									#96
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Yeah, I voted for Lincoln. Might be cause I was born in Illinois though.

	17-06-2003 05:55									#97
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH You can't sit in the terraces. Terraces were all standing bits of the... er... stands. Also, the Premiership grounds are all seater now so there are no terraces at Old Trafford anymore.

That's why I have to go there - to learn these things!

	17-06-2003 07:20									#98
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quote: Lincoln, inarguably. Without him, there would not be an America.

The same thing can be said for Washington and it would be more accurate. Lincoln didn't save America; he kept the country unified. Without Lincoln, America would probably still exist; we would just be lacking some of our hotter states. Washington, OTOH, was the true father of this country and its almost impossible to think that the nation would've gained its independence and kept it without him.

Washington -

	17-06-2003 09:00									#99
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The fact that a butterfly created America with a flap of its wings does not make the butterfly important or great.

	17-06-2003 09:33									#100
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It's just as well that he wasn't a butterfly, then.

	17-06-2003 09:34									#101
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Come to think of it, a butterfly that could do that would be pretty damn cool.

	17-06-2003 10:08									#102
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Come to think of it, a butterfly that could do that would be pretty damn cool.

Yeah. But what sad pathetic excuse of an animal created Canada then?

	18-06-2003 05:56									#103
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Wasn't Canada created when a moose took a ****? I think that's how the legend goes.

	18-06-2003 06:38									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Lincoln, inarguably. Without him, there would not be an America. The same thing can be said for Washington and it would be more accurate. Lincoln didn't save America; he kept the country unified. Without Lincoln, America would probably still exist; we would just be lacking some of our hotter states.

Nonsense. What did Washington do that made America possible that others could not have done? His military "expertise" certainly wasn't won the revolution. Independence would have been achieved without him.

As for his presidency--it was most remarkable for what he didn't do rather than what he did. He set the tone for the future presidents and practised restraint in his power that has been a cornerstone of the presidency since (well, perhaps with some exceptions). I won't belittle this--it was very important.

But Lincoln, by almost the sheer force of his will, made sure the country that was ripping apart at its seams staid together. Had the South successfully seceeded, I believe that if America still existed (I have my doubts, considering the voracity of European imperial powers), it would be one so substantially different from modern America that it could scarcely be called the same country.

quote: Washington, OTOH, was the true father of this country and its almost impossible to think that the nation would've gained its independence and kept it without him.

I think this belittles the other men who were around at the time: Jefferson, Adams, Franklin to name a few. I am very doubtful that Washington was the only man who could have successfully led America in the beginning. And, as mentioned above, his military leadership wasn't exactly the most inspiring on record. The British were doomed to lose the colonies sooner or later. Perhaps Washington was key in speeding their loss, but I don't think he ultimately made any difference in the outcome of the war.

	18-06-2003 06:41									#105
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quote: What did Washington do that made America possible that others could not have done? His military "expertise" certainly wasn't won the revolution.

Actually you can argue it did. He had piss poor troops and had the presence of mind to get them from being demolished so that they could fight another day. Other generals fought less experienced troops and fared well (Greene and Arnold come to mind), but without Washington's hit-and-run strategy the army would have been demolished.

And 'America' would have been lost.

Oh, I'd pick Washington over Lincoln too.

	18-06-2003 10:33									#106
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quote: Independence would have been achieved without him.

Why do you believe this? The American War for Independence was an incredibly close run thing even with Washington around; I have a hard time seeing the American forces fighting on long enough to make it to Yorktown without Washington's leadership. We don't learn about Valley Forge in school for nothing. Washington held the Continental Army together and forged them into a decent fighting force by the end of the war. His contribution to the war effort was absolutely vital.

quote: As for his presidency--it was most remarkable for what he didn't do rather than what he did.

Washington doesn't get enough credit for his accomplishments as president either. He didn't just set the standard of behavior for future presidents; he helped flesh out the role of the entire executive branch. He also navigated the country through several foreign policy crises that had the potential to doom the nascent republic. Washinton managed to navigate successfully between the competing British and French empires, setting a course that his successors would follow in the dangerous early years of the American nation.

Lincoln was a great president, but he can't compete with Washington.

	18-06-2003 19:25									#107
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One of the great things Washington did was to not seiuze contr9ol and to set a hight standard of ethics.