21-06-2003 03:13									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat IF (big IF), you clearly scope out the types of externalities that have to be considered, a minimum threshhold of impact (so you don't get forced into wasting inordinate time on stuff so small it fades into background noise), a maximum degree of indirectness (no flapping butterfly causing a hurricane debates), and agreed methods for modeling costs and consequences, then addressing externalities is sound practice.

YAY!!!!

(even though I don't think the "if" is that big)

nuff said.

	21-06-2003 03:14									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon as all good Republicans like Michael know

Them's fighting words, boy. I'm no republican.

It'd take three weeks, not two.

	21-06-2003 03:16									#33
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Here's a question:

Why do so many people from the US complain about their government?

I mean - most people think that their governments could be improved or have a slightly negative opinion of them. But only in the States has this become pathological.

What's wrong with you? Why don't you just elect a better one. That's what we do when we hate ours.

	21-06-2003 03:18									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Them's fighting words, boy. I'm no republican.

Come on.. you ain't no Democrat and I've watched your TV News I know that you have to be one or the other.

quote: It'd take three weeks, not two.

	21-06-2003 03:36									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara One could make the argument that the carbon would leave the cycle if we didn't have herds of animals eating all the grass and grain up.[quote] The animals contribute to the ecosystem. You wouldn't have good soil without them. It would turn into soil, and continue to deposit. I don't know if it's a good argument, on the other hand, I've heard (from lousy sources) that the US MidWest has lost 33 feet of topsoil since we began farming (which sounds rather specious to me). That's a lot of carbon back in the system.

It's 6-10 feet depending on area, and it's a result of ****ed up flood managment on the Mississippi-Missouri river system, not farming. Flood control unfortunately interferes with natural cycling of sediment downstream.

That topsoil west of the rivers is essentially thousands of years of recycled grass, in the form of buffalo-****. Getting rid of the buffalos wouldn't give you a better carbon cycle, because the soil would deplete - the fiber in the grass decomposes poorly without the help of animal molars and digestive enzymes.

	21-06-2003 03:48									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Come on.. you ain't no Democrat and I've watched your TV News I know that you have to be one or the other.

I am a Southern Democrat descended from generations of Southern Democrats and New Dealers.

I can't stand liberal whiners, but my social positions are a mixture of mainstream Democrat with a little good ol' boy "government can **** off and leave people alone" populism thrown in.

I'm only a rightist (in the US spectrum) on fiscal and taxation issues. Oh, and on the DP - if they're really guilty and we're really sure, string 'em up.

	21-06-2003 03:49									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I am a Southern Democrat descended from generations of Southern Democrats and New Dealers. I can't stand liberal whiners, but my social positions are a mixture of mainstream Democrat with a little good ol' boy "government can **** off and leave people alone" populism thrown in. I'm only a rightist (in the US spectrum) on fiscal and taxation issues. Oh, and on the DP - if they're really guilty and we're really sure, string 'em up.

Youse a traitor, boy!

	21-06-2003 03:53									#38
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The proper term is "rebel"

	21-06-2003 03:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Here's a question: Why do so many people from the US complain about their government? I mean - most people think that their governments could be improved or have a slightly negative opinion of them. But only in the States has this become pathological. What's wrong with you? Why don't you just elect a better one. That's what we do when we hate ours.

Well we are as bad (the British), we have Blair to worry about...

	21-06-2003 03:55									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The proper term is "rebel"

You better stop or I'll set General Burnside on you.

	21-06-2003 04:11									#41
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Oh please, suh, not thayat. Enythang but that thar fiendish Genrul Buhnside.

	21-06-2003 04:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What's wrong with you? Why don't you just elect a better one. That's what we do when we hate ours.

They did elect a better government. Do you think the Yanks would be stupid enough to vote Bush in power ?

	21-06-2003 04:47									#43
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Gore is a slimy greaseball, so he'd not likely to be much of an improvement.

And if he took a strong economy, a two-term incumbency as VP and a mediocre at best campaign by Bush, and still couldn't avoid coming down to a close race in Florida, then he obviously didn't get a ringing endorsement from the electorate.

	21-06-2003 05:33									#44
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I still can't believe that you people are seriously discussing a tax on farts with a straight face.

	21-06-2003 05:47									#45
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It's a methane tax. It isn't as if they are going to march around with a detector next to everyone's bottom.

	21-06-2003 05:58									#46
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Meanwhile, landfills all over the world are emiting methane, cattle and sheep everywhere but NZ are free to fart without consequence to their owners, etc.

Oh, and let's drain the Everglades and every other permanent wetlands in the world, while we're on our campaign to reduce methane emissions.

	21-06-2003 05:59									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's a methane tax. It isn't as if they are going to march around with a detector next to everyone's bottom.

DD - actually, that's what we're going to do with all the leftists. Appoint them as personal methane detectors. Whose nose do you want?

	21-06-2003 06:18									#48
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Maybe there should be a tax on politicians for all the wind they produce... or is that hot air?

Might encourage a few to shut up.

	21-06-2003 06:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Maybe there should be a tax on politicians for all the wind they produce... or is that hot air? Might encourage a few to shut up.

Either way, it's a major contributor to global warming.

	21-06-2003 07:00									#50
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didn't one of the roman emperors try to impose a tax on urine? seems about as clever doesn't it

	21-06-2003 07:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat DD - actually, that's what we're going to do with all the leftists. Appoint them as personal methane detectors. Whose nose do you want?

This is the type of comedic gold I expect in a thread about fart taxes.

	21-06-2003 07:16									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Meanwhile, landfills all over the world are emiting methane, cattle and sheep everywhere but NZ are free to fart without consequence to their owners, etc.

So what, they don't have to meet New Zealand's emission targets under the Kyoto accord. Whatever other countries want to do to meet their targets is their business.

Besides, if we reduce emissions enough we can trade our credits to the filthy countries for money.

	21-06-2003 07:22									#53
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Actually what's funny about the opinions on this thread is that not even the farmers are disputing that the methane emissions are a problem, they are only complaining about having to pay the tax. Instead they want everyone to pay for it because everyone will benefit.

	21-06-2003 09:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison The major problem I have is that the gases that livestock produce are very much integrated into the carbon cycle anyway...they eat grass and other vegetation, produce carbon dioxide and methane (the latter will break down to carbon dioxide anyway over time) which are absorbed by plants. Our problem is the introduction of carbon into the biosphere which has previously left the cycle...this is not. Perhaps these people could do to learn a bit of biology...

The problem is herds of those sizes could never exist naturally without human inteference. What's even worse is like parts of South America, where the Amazon rainforest is cut down to make way for ranches.

	21-06-2003 15:06									#55
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quote: So what, they don't have to meet New Zealand's emission targets under the Kyoto accord.

Obviously, the solution has to involve emission credits. People who fart less should be credited for their common sense and lack of undigested greens in their diet.

Cauliflower would become especially repugnant, even more so than now.

	21-06-2003 16:08									#56
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I personally consider the tax to be serious, since I consider the tax more to be a pollution tax than a farting tax. If cattle-farting makes 50% of NZ's greenhouse gas production, it is normal they try to take steps about it, even though it revolves around FARTS ! WEEE ! FUNFUNFUN !

The tax is probably not the best possible solution. Maybe they should look for geneteically engineered cattle who farts less, or maybe they should look for a way to gether methane and use it (or dispose it) properly... I don't know.

Besides, I don't think they'll ever measure the farts of an entire herd, or anything ludicrous like that : the volume of methane an animal farts is scientifically calculated and varies little if the cattle enjoys a similar diet. It is just like the volume of air breathed by the animal. They'll most likely take the middle value and apply it to the entire country, and will maybe measure the farts of individual animals in a herd, if the herd has a radical difference in its diet. There is no need to put a leftist with a detector behind each cow.

I personally have no particular problem with making the polluter pay for his pollution. In this case, the farmers pollute. Why not tax ?

	21-06-2003 19:44									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I personally consider the tax to be serious, since I consider the tax more to be a pollution tax than a farting tax.

Is that so you can keep a straight face when talking about it?