21-06-2003 08:15									#31
	Re: How did you change your political views? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun For instance, if at one time (if you're an American), you were a staunch Republican and you later changed your support to the Democratic party, how did you go about this change?

I switched from being a moderate Republican to being a moderate Democrat after the who Impeachment debockle. I was so pissed off about the Republican party grand standing and dragging the country through the mud just so they try to tar and feather a man for cheating. That the Ken Starr special prosicuture was obviously a politically motivated witch hunt which never did anything other then pile up millions upon millions of dollars in bills for the public to pay didn't help either.

	21-06-2003 09:23									#32
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I was once naive, too young to understand the purpose of taxation and such and profoundly influenced by the revolution. Then I grew up, saw what a screwed up place the US really is and became a leftist. Did some more thinking, and gradually became more pacifistic.

	21-06-2003 09:36									#33
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Believe it or not, I started out as a hard-right Republican nationalist, in fact, I posted a little bit on Apoly several years ago under my old account with this type of thinking. But I have evolved into a socialist minded individual after seeing more of the real world and I have never looked back.

	21-06-2003 09:51									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Reagan won the governorship in California on an anti-student platform (among othe positions). When he took office, California was No. 1 in the nation in education. When Grey Davis took office (following a string of Republican governors), California was No. 49.

To be fair the fall was almost entirely the fault of Democrates. How? Back in the late 1960s and early 1970s all public schools were neighborhood schools who's funds were nearly all raised through local property taxes. This did a good job of letting the local population decide on school funding & issues but it also meant that more affluent had higher land values and so paid higher property taxes while poorer areas had less money.

Democrates got all indignant about it and vowed to "level the playing field" by having the state control local properity taxes as well as school funding. Sounds ok doesn't it? The only problem was politicians in the State House jumped on top of the money and diverted it to their pet projects and left education lacking. Citizens got mad at the poor school funding so the politicians raised the properity taxes to pay for better schools only the money got diverted agains so they raised taxes again but the money got diverted again so...

Are you getting the picture? Any way property taxes quaddruppled in one 5 year period and the people we outraged. So outraged they ammended the state's constitution so that all raises in taxes would need a 60% majority instead of the old 50% +1 vote majority. Now the state is unable to raise taxes but niether is the Democratic majority willing to cut spending on non-essential programs enough to pay for decent schools. That's why we now have a $35 billion per year deficit in the state which is 50% more then the state takes in per year.

	21-06-2003 10:03									#35
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Read a good bit of socialist theory in HS (was a big nerd) and bounced all around the radical left but after some looon poly flame wars (which tended to make me a bit more moderate and libertarian) and doing some real activism in college (just grauduated) I've ended up as some kind of very bizarrely moderate libertarian socialist.

	21-06-2003 10:17									#36
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i was raised in a conservative republican household.

once i started thinking on my own, i realized that a lot of the brand of conservatives down where i lived didn't particularly like my kind, even if some of their ideas were spot on.

once i started doing a bit of research, i found that some conservatives are identical to some liberals in their demagoguery of their ideological enemies.

once i started living my own life, i found that some points the liberals had were extremely valid, and perfectly workable.

so instead of being conservative, i ended up being moderate.
more economically conservative, more socially liberal.

anybody should be allowed to get married (straight and gays), but they damn well ought to stay together (divorces should be harder to get).
race-based-aa should be thrown out wholesale, and economic-based-aa should be brought in.
welfare shouldn't subsidize people who sit on their ass all day, but they sure as hell deserve a living wage if they work full-time, or have more than one job.
so i sorta straddle the fence right there.

	21-06-2003 10:28									#37
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For you conservatives out there, have you read John Rawls? How would you refute his "veil of ignorance" argument?

	21-06-2003 10:57									#38
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Krazyhorse -

quote: Funny. That's why I'm a socialist.

Your parents taught you to steal?

	21-06-2003 11:05									#39
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Went from Communist to the most evilest ultra right wing fascist from beginning of HS to the end of HS. Now I just pretend to be in the middle by saying some lefty crap so no one thinks im the next mussolini or something.

	21-06-2003 11:08									#40
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Zkribbler -

quote: So if we "little folks" wanted to be left alone without some overload trying to run our lives, wanted to have equal opportunity, want to have hard work rewarded with sucess, the our salvation was with the liberals.

Liberals don't try to run your life? Who do you think got the US into Vietnam?

	21-06-2003 11:20									#41
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anti commies berzerker

	21-06-2003 12:59									#42
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I used to be moderate leftist. I loved Clinton, voted for Gore, and gloated when Gingrich got kicked out.

No more after 9-1-1. The leftist ideals are nothing to me now but day-dreaming nonsense. They make one weak and dependent. The glory of a civilization doesn't come through self-loathing and other masochistic behaviors, but through self-confidence and power.

I'm moderate right now. I don't qualify as a true conservative because I distrust corporations and the religious right.

	21-06-2003 16:32									#43
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quote: Second, laws have unintended consequences...even sometimes ending people's lives.

And some laws have intended consequences to end people's lives. Laws cannot be held responsible for what people do when trying to break the laws.

That's probably the main reason for my shift to the right. Before I went to university, I would classify myself as a social liberal and a fiscal conservative.

I would never have voted for the Liberals, though I only agreed with the Reform party because of their fiscal conservative stance, and status as a western protest party.

I became disillusioned by what most 'social liberals' do when leading their life, that it did not give me pleasure, and for many, that it did not give them pleasure. Most of the people I admired in the university setting were Christians of one stripe or another, even before I became one.

When the radical left pro-choice people destroyed a peaceful protest that shocked me, because aren't liberals first and foremost for protecting peaceful protest, along the lines of Martin Luther King? I realised that most liberals only believe in tolerance when you agree with them on the important issues.

	21-06-2003 19:35									#44
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Monkspider:

you have been tainted in college by liberal thinking. a couple years into being out of college, you'd probably go back to being a conservative

	21-06-2003 20:55									#45
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I believe money runs the show and in keeping the corruptable state off the @$$ of the people as much as possible but not in free lunch for feminazies or minorities.

	21-06-2003 20:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Monkspider: you have been tainted in college by liberal thinking. a couple years into being out of college, you'd probably go back to being a conservative

Believe it or not, my college is actually very conservative.

	21-06-2003 22:50									#47
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I guess I was hoping too much for people to contribute their personal experiences in changing their political ideologies without using it as an opportunity to insult those who have different ideologies from them.

"When I was full of bulls*t once, I was a liberal . . ."

"I used to think I knew how the real world worked when I was conservative, but then common sense came to me, and I began to become more liberal . . ."

Nothing but arrogant hog-wash, if you ask me.

	21-06-2003 23:52									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Zkribbler - Liberals don't try to run your life? Who do you think got the US into Vietnam?

Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and their pluthera of advisers.

	22-06-2003 00:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and their pluthera of advisers.

Mostly JFK and LBJ. Not much happened there while Eisenhower was in; Nixon inherited the war from Johnson and eventually pulled the U.S. out (albeit not nearly soon enough). I think Berzerker's point is that Kennedy and Johnson were liberals.

	22-06-2003 00:27									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger For you conservatives out there, have you read John Rawls? How would you refute his "veil of ignorance" argument?

Ha! Definitely one of the theories that changed my mind. I used to be a libertarian on all issues but the environment.

Then I grew up. I read Rawls and some critical race theory stuff. The big moment for me though, is when I worked in the Travis Co. Dept. of Corrections dealing with probationers. Every time we did probation orientation, I notced that the overwhelming number of DWI cases were black or hispanic and pulled in the East Riverside area of Austin. I lived in the West Campus area at the time. An area filled with frat boys, who on weekends, drove around drunk. Any cops to stop these guys? Nope. A frat boy started shooting .22 rounds at my girlfriend's parent's condo building. The police showed up, issued a warning, and - get this - didn't even confiscate the gun! If this had been a poor black guy instead of a white frat boy, the offender would still be in Huntsville getting raped. A complete pass for frat boy crackers.

But that wasn't the worst. The worst was in terms of length of probation and hours of community service. Lets look at first offense DWI for example. Minorities (black, hispanic, east asian, Indian, you name it) always got the max. Always. Middle class and upper class white men usually got 1/2 to 3/4 the community service hours and the full 2yrs of probation. Middle class white women usually 1/2 the community service and anywhere between 1 to 2yrs probation. Cute, young middle class white woman? 6mo. to 1yr probation, 1/4 to 1/2 the community service. Talk about disparities in sentencing. And this is in the most liberal place in Texas!

It was only a summer job, but working there completely changed my mind on class and race in the US.

My change to a more socialistic/third way economic position was a bit more complicated.

9/11 left me really suspicious of religion. I used to think that Christian Scientists had a right not to have their children receive medical treatment (like a good libertarian). Now, **** the superstitious bastards. Treat their kids and put them in prison if they resist. And no, it would not be imprisonment for their beliefs, it would be imprisonment for not treating their damn kids properly.

	22-06-2003 00:29									#51
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Last edited by The Templar on 22-06-2003 at 00:44

	22-06-2003 01:16									#52
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Templar -

quote: I used to be a libertarian on all issues but the environment. Then I grew up. I read Rawls and some critical race theory stuff. The big moment for me though, is when I worked in the Travis Co. Dept. of Corrections dealing with probationers.

And you blame libertarians for the racist policies of Democrats and Republicans?

	22-06-2003 01:20									#53
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Btw, just what does libertarianism say about the environment?

	22-06-2003 01:25									#54
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that you can dump your **** everywhere.

	22-06-2003 01:26									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Templar - And you blame libertarians for the racist policies of Democrats and Republicans?

Not at all. But I do firmly support affirmative action now (I was more on the fence back then - seeing it as a necessary evil if you will), and no longer believe canards about "everyone being able to make it if you try!" The fact is, the playing field is never level - if you're born with advantages like upper class parents or middle class parents or even white privilege - you have undeniable advantages under a free market system. One reflection of this is in the disparities of treatment in the judicial system. Most libertarias I know want a color blind system (I used to think this was a good idea too). Now I know this is wrong. You need color blind people first.

	22-06-2003 01:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel that you can dump your **** everywhere.

Most libertarians are a little more nuanced in their explanation than this, but essentially that's what it is.

	22-06-2003 02:02									#57
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Azazel -

quote: that you can dump your **** everywhere.

Yeah, that wouldn't violate the principle of private property considered so important under libertarianism.

Templar -

quote: But I do firmly support affirmative action now (I was more on the fence back then - seeing it as a necessary evil if you will), and no longer believe canards about "everyone being able to make it if you try!"

Obviously most people are helped in achieving their goals by being born with the genetic tools (how you plan to "equalise" that should be interesting), but Jim Crow and it's lingering effects were government infringements upon the free market. So you're pointing to the unwanted effects of government infringement on the market as a reason to continue infringing upon the market.

quote: The fact is, the playing field is never level - if you're born with advantages like upper class parents or middle class parents or even white privilege - you have undeniable advantages under a free market system.

You have undeniable advantages under any system, even the commies will reward smarter people with more fulfilling jobs even if everyone is enslaved by the state.

quote: One reflection of this is in the disparities of treatment in the judicial system. Most libertarias I know want a color blind system (I used to think this was a good idea too). Now I know this is wrong. You need color blind people first.

Ah, so all that stuff about racism you used as a reason to "grow up" and away from libertarianism had nothing to do with what libertarians advocate. Instead, it's about "equal opportunity"...But I'm glad to see you admit that you don't want a color blind government either...

Do you see the irony of pointing to the racism of differential treatment by government based on race only to advocate the same thing? All you've done is switch around the groups being treated differently...

	22-06-2003 02:04									#58
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quote: Yeah, that wouldn't violate the principle of private property considered so important under libertarianism.

and Since noone owns the air, and the seas.....

	22-06-2003 02:08									#59
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quote: Most libertarians are a little more nuanced in their explanation than this, but essentially that's what it is.

If you're so ignorant about libertarianism on this issue, how did you become informed enough on other issues wrt libertarianism to conclude you were once a libertarian?

	22-06-2003 02:10									#60
	Remove this text

quote: and Since noone owns the air, and the seas.....

So I can pollute lands I don't own under libertarianism? Hmm...