24-06-2003 08:26									#31
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The most common thing is for a city to build a big new attraction in a blighted area (like Long Beach's Aquarium of the Pacific, or Seattles Safeway field, or others) and then to offer tax/financial incentives for business & developers to concentrate on that area.

Cleaning up schools & parks, while beautifying the area and repairing roads also helps.

	24-06-2003 08:44									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident typical leftie response as the post above just said. It would men only the very rich could live in good neighborhoods. The middle class would be forced to live in crime ridden neighborhoods. It's a microcosm of what socialism does to a society. Lefties always want to force people to do things. They haven't heard of a little thing called liberty.

You assume the only "good" neighborhoods are outside the city. Let's think about that for a second. A good neighborhood as cultural activities like movies and live music (of all varieties) and some theatre doesn't hurt either. A good neighborhood has a friendly neighborhood bar. A good neighborhood has great restauraunts. A good neighborhood has parks, and local sports.

Oh wait. That's not some bedroom community suburb. That's the East Villiage. The Garden District. The French Quarter. DuPont Circle. In other words, the best neighborhoods are urban.

The best way to stop sprawl and white flight is to:

(a) not build roads, water lines, electric lines and other infrastructure out to undeveloped areas.

(b) jack up the gas tax on non-commercial vehicles (so as to keep other prices stable) and build more mass transit, eliminate parking lots, and replace most lanes in multilane roads with giant planters and wider sidewalks.

(c) Remind people that cities rule!

	24-06-2003 08:48									#33
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I'm glade you don't have the power to inforce such rules. Not only would they not revitialize urban areas but they'd destroy the economy to boot.

85% of all goods in the country are carried by truck. If you raise fuel prices then you're raising the price of everything carried by that fuel.

	24-06-2003 09:02									#34
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But then more goods would be carried by rail or similar, since it would become comparatively cheaper.

	24-06-2003 09:05									#35
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Rail or similar have limited capacities.

	24-06-2003 09:07									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Gay people earn more because they're smarter and think outside the box.

Badumpbump!!! Rimming shot.

	24-06-2003 18:26									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Most people can't stay away from cities - they need to go work. For the few that don't, you can't attract them back anyway.

So your idea is crock anyway?

	24-06-2003 18:45									#38
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"outside the box"

	24-06-2003 21:03									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Rail or similar have limited capacities.

So do roads.

In fact, using roads is only cheaper because unlike railways, users don't have to bear the full cost of building the roads.

	24-06-2003 21:16									#40
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The only real long-term solution is a levelling of income disparities. The larger the gap between rich and poor in a country, the worse its urban problems will be. The downtrodden and hopeless (and those who prey off them) will always end up congregating somewhere. I can't say I blame people with kids for not wanting to live beside a crack house, so the city will always be abandoned to them. The solution is to minimize their numbers. There are two ways to do this.

To paraphrase: "The Welfare State is the only alternative in modern times to the Police State".

	24-06-2003 21:28									#41
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Gay people are a potential solution to urban decay?

Works in my neighborhood. They are willing to take more risks in transitional neighborhoods because of the stuff that Oerdin mentioned.

There are no bathhouses any more that I know of, even though they used to proliferate. A gay neighborhood doesn't have to mean a red light district any more.

	24-06-2003 21:44									#42
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quote: The downtrodden and hopeless (and those who prey off them) will always end up congregating somewhere

In most developed societies I think it is fairer to say that the violent and criminal poor prey on the rich.

	24-06-2003 21:50									#43
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i'm not so sure. those same violent and criminal poor, when they riot, tend not to riot in the better parts of town, but where they live.

they'll riot in compton, not beverly hills.

talk about shitting where you eat...

	24-06-2003 21:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So do roads.

Roads already have the capacity to hold the trucks, if we suddenly transferred everything to rail, rail would not have the capacity.

Of course roads have a limited capacity, was this an attempt to be profound?

quote: In fact, using roads is only cheaper because unlike railways, users don't have to bear the full cost of building the roads.

Eh? The rail systems in Canada are subsidized by the government.

	24-06-2003 22:47									#45
	Re: How Do You Fix a Broken City Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Seeker This is a problem for all North America. Problem: so-called 'white flight' to suburbs. The relatively wealthy cluster to distant suburbs, driving up property values and funding quality schools and other institutions. Also, they keep 'high quality' spending in this areas and tend to be culturally active and community involved. creating a donut city with a downward spiral...neglect, closing businesses, and a run down look, crime or the appearance of crime. A vicious circle where there is less and less reason to invest and more and more risk. A rent controlled appartment building with crack smoking tenants (or appearance thereof)? No thanks says mr committed non-slimeball investor/landlord.

This isn't a problem for Toronto. The city remains economically and socially vibrant within its core area. There is a solid mix of income groups ranging from very poor to super rich.

Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world. 57% of the population is white. Chinese and South Asian each make up about 10% of the population.

The downtown area is not run down. Some areas are upper class neighbourhoods. It is not economically depressed. Toronto remains a major contributor to the Canadian economy.

There has been urban sprawl to the new suburbs, but these are also seeing a mix of ethnic groups.

As with any community, Toronto has its problems, but it far ahead of cities south of the border.

	24-06-2003 23:01									#46
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And here I thought it was becasue there wasn't a mass exodus from Toronto.

Chief reasons being a need to huddle together for warmth and safety in numbers from marauding polar bears.

	25-06-2003 00:09									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's In most developed societies I think it is fairer to say that the violent and criminal poor prey on the rich.

that is not true though.

You'd be suprised how lazy criminals can be. You would think they would all drive to the good sections of town to rob houses. But often they just rob each other.

Most of the crime in good neighborhoods where I live is perpetrated by people living in those same neighborhoods. Although one problem we have is the criminals seem to have a lot of money to live in good neighborhoods. So there is no neighborhood free of crime in my city.

	25-06-2003 00:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Most people can't stay away from cities - they need to go work. For the few that don't, you can't attract them back anyway.

What if businesses move along with the people to the suburbs. (which is happening here all over the place)

	25-06-2003 00:58									#49
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many businesses are moving to the suburbs.

Back in the day, most businesses had to be in the center of town. Many depended on deliveries from the railcars. And it was just easier for everything to be centrally located.


In my city many smaller office buildings are on the west side of the town. And I belive Westwood Studios (PC game developer) is on the west side of town as well.

If it weren't for gambling - out downtown would be worse than it already is.

	25-06-2003 03:43									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin 85% of all goods in the country are carried by truck. If you raise fuel prices then you're raising the price of everything carried by that fuel.

I said send taxes through the roof on non-commerical fuel users. Trucks transporting foods and goods could be exempted.

	25-06-2003 04:23									#51
	Tired of ads?

what about people who use personal vehicles for their business?

	25-06-2003 04:38									#52
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White flight? What about gentrification?

in philly, for example, Center City is quite wealthy and though most of the residential homes are no bigger (many are in fact smaller!) than the houses in North Philly, they are worth several times as much. it's ironic how in the past twenty years, the (inner) inner city has become quite affluent while everything around it has decayed

anyway, here's another solution... bring in industry. I used to live in the near Northeast which includes a neighbourhood named Kensington which has the worst standard of living in all of philly (imagine that) as well as the shortest expected life-span of people in philly. the entire neighbourhood is littered with massive empty factories and warehouses. between a half century and a century ago, Kensington was not particularily wealthy but was undoubtedly doing better than it is today as the drug infested white (yep! it's mostly white) and puerto rican neighbourhood it is today.

so bring the jobs back!


thanks

	25-06-2003 04:44									#53
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Immigration. Works for NY, one of the two (the other being Chicago) older American cities that saw significant growth within their city limits.

NY NY NY NY!

(not really a solution, just somehting to make Bodd's happy...)

	25-06-2003 04:58									#54
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GePap:

there has not been too much positive about immigrants coming to philly. i think i posted on apolyton before about west indian and east africa immigrants sticking animals in the tiny graveled lot behind their rowhomes... and korean and indian immigrants do little else but work at corner stores, gas stations, or 7-11's... how does immigration help?

	25-06-2003 05:23									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident what about people who use personal vehicles for their business?

Depends what you mean. Taxis on duty, trucks moving goods, buses, garbage trucks etc. are commercial operations. If you're just using your car to get to meetings, then take the subway/bus/taxi or pay the tax.

	25-06-2003 05:52									#56
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quote: You know what we do to parasites don't you?

Send them to Law school/the stock exchange?

	25-06-2003 06:23									#57
	Tired of ads?

Easy, don't vote for the Democrats.

Take a look at New York during the last year of Dinkins and the last year of Guiliani, or if you're in the Midwest, go take a look at St. Paul before Norm Coleman and after.

	25-06-2003 06:26									#58
	Re: How Do You Fix a Broken City Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Seeker This is a problem for all North America. Problem: so-called 'white flight' to suburbs. The relatively wealthy cluster to distant suburbs, driving up property values and funding quality schools and other institutions. Also, they keep 'high quality' spending in this areas and tend to be culturally active and community involved. creating a donut city with a downward spiral...neglect, closing businesses, and a run down look, crime or the appearance of crime. A vicious circle where there is less and less reason to invest and more and more risk. A rent controlled appartment building with crack smoking tenants (or appearance thereof)? No thanks says mr committed non-slimeball investor/landlord. Attempted Solutions: Gay People: Seems to have worked in most places. Gay people bring boutiques and small businesses downtown. And restaurants etc. Pros: works Cons: not enough gays. some people don't like to raise kids in areas with known bathhouses/bars.

positive and negative stereotypes thrown in one post

	25-06-2003 06:31									#59
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quote: I said send taxes through the roof on non-commerical fuel users.

Easy way out... I'm driving to work... that's a commerical use .

	25-06-2003 07:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I said send taxes through the roof on non-commerical fuel users. Easy way out... I'm driving to work... that's a commerical use .

Nope. And you have no excuse, Jersey has trains.