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H Tower
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Prime Minister
-Oversees general policy issues
-Executes game orders and runs the game
-Posts updates and queries on the forums and site
-Elected by relative vote of different parties.
-Presents government according to his likings from his own and other parties.
-Can be overthrow by 2/3 vote of parliament, or 50% absolute vote
President
-Declares and calls elections
-Appoints and dismisses Justices
-Elected in direct elections.
-Can be overthrow by 2/3 vote of parliament, or 50% absolute vote
Defense
-Devises strategic war plans
-Appoints Chief of Staff
-Commands intelligence activities
-Responsible for home front defence
Economy
-Responsible for science, taxes and luxuries.
-Responsible for managing settlers in public works.
Interior
-Responsible for managing cities
-Determines city productios
-Responsible for founding new cities.
Foreign
-Responsible for talks and deals with foreign governments
Advises foreign policy to the PM and Defense minister.
High Justice
-Oversees court activity
-Resides appeals court
-Overthrows officials without vote
Justice
-Formulates new laws.
-Manages law making (accepts laws, and archives them)
-Defends government in court.
2 Justices
-Reside in cases, judge and document them.
Comptroller
-Posts criticism of the game in all senses.
-Observes constitution
-Can file suits to the court
-Appointed by the president or by popular vote
Historian
-Documents and archives events in the forums and the game.
-Is appointed by the president or by popular vote.
Chief of Staff
-Appointed and dismissed by the PM
-Devises tactical war plans
-IDF chief commander
Commands
-Northern
Lebanon and Syria
-Center
Palestine and Jordan
-South West
Egypt
-South East
Saudi Arabia and Iraq
Corps
-Air & Paratroops
Responsible for managing the air force and aiding needing commands
-Navy & Marines
Responsible for managing the navy and aiding needing commands
Note: To get a better view of Siro's plan, you really should download the document, the way he tabled it helps understand how it would be set up.
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H Tower
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The first thing that jumps out at me is that we have 18 positions! so far only 15 people have voted yes in the poll for this thread, a difficulty to say the least.
There's a mistake made about the appointment of the Chief of Staff. The defense minister description says that he appoints the Chief, however the Chief description says that he is appointed by the Prime Minister.
Corps Commanders: I hate the idea of this so much it makes my blood boil when someone says that it would work. Let's say that we're laying a huge offensive on into Egypt. We have a few naval vessels that will be used for shore bombardment wherever the Army needs them, a Marine contingent to move along the coast, the Air Force to also provide support to the army, and finally the army itself. Now, for maximum success, the Army should push itself into Egypt as far as it can easily go, then use the Airforce to bust a whole in the Egyptian lines, then the army can move through the hole in the enemy lines until they get to the next roadblock, the navy takes care of that one, and then the army moves again. Sounds good, right? Well that just took 5 posted save files to get done, now consider that all of the fronts have some kind of combined arms operation going on, we would have 20-30 posted save files for only 1 turn! It would be chaos! Corp commanders are a TERRIBLE IDEA.
Settlers: The Economy minister is in charge of settlers working for the public works, but the Interior minister is in charge of building new cities, dual ownership of the engineers???
The Court: The high Justice can overthrow an elected official without a vote??? The Court formulates new laws, so now we are putting the people who rule on points of law, creating the law? Whatever happened to the system of checks and balances? What kind of laws are we talking about here anyways?
Comtroller: He makes criticisms of the game? Won't we all be criticiszing bad decisions, military operations? Can't anyone file a complaint with the court?
Midlevel ministers: How are Defense, Interior, Economy, Justices, Foriegn ministers selected?
Wrapping it up: I'd like to hear more about how elections and court cases would work, like what kind of cases would there be, types of rulings that could be handed out, etc, etc.
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EmuGod
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I also have a plan in mind which I will write up soon and post here for everyone's approval. I have to say I agree with much of H Tower's criticisms, especially on the idea of Corps Commanders. In theory, they make a lot of sense but in practice it would be very complicated.
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EmuGod
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quote:
Originally posted by sirsnuggles
I don't understand the whole court process. What laws are we talking about. Are we going to have to write a 250 page constitution enumerating the laws of Israel? More explanation needed on this one.
Although the corps idea is complicated, it would get more people involved in the game, and would follow real life more closely. Even in real war, the army sometimes gets abandoned, or crossed up, or miscommunicated with the airforce or navy. I'd love to see that happen here. I could just imagine the he-said-she-said (army-promised-navy-promised) arguments!
I think its great. We need a challenge when it comes to beating the tired ai. |
Have you tried this scenario on Deity? If not, let me assure you that the AI is not as clumsy at it usually is. Along the entire front it seems that endless numbers of armoured cars keeping rolling against the border towns and the Syians and Egyptians are very hard to stop.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by H Tower
The first thing that jumps out at me is that we have 18 positions! so far only 15 people have voted yes in the poll for this thread, a difficulty to say the least. |
Hmm....
Good point 
Perhaps people could double at some parts ?
For instance, Rabin was for a long time both the PM and MoDefence and MoEconomy for Israel.
Obviously the same person can not sit in different government structures. (IE, one person can take several places in the govt, but you can't be both in the govt, a judge, and in the IDF).
quote:
There's a mistake made about the appointment of the Chief of Staff. The defense minister description says that he appoints the Chief, however the Chief description says that he is appointed by the Prime Minister. |
Admittedly an error. I think i'll go to the defense chief.
quote:
Corps Commanders: I hate the idea of this so much it makes my blood boil when someone says that it would work. Let's say that we're laying a huge offensive on into Egypt. We have a few naval vessels that will be used for shore bombardment wherever the Army needs them, a Marine contingent to move along the coast, the Air Force to also provide support to the army, and finally the army itself. Now, for maximum success, the Army should push itself into Egypt as far as it can easily go, then use the Airforce to bust a whole in the Egyptian lines, then the army can move through the hole in the enemy lines until they get to the next roadblock, the navy takes care of that one, and then the army moves again. Sounds good, right? Well that just took 5 posted save files to get done, now consider that all of the fronts have some kind of combined arms operation going on, we would have 20-30 posted save files for only 1 turn! It would be chaos! Corp commanders are a TERRIBLE IDEA.
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Wow there.
I thought of a completely different process there.
IMO there would only be 1 game playing session, during which several people are discussing the game, and only 1 person interacts with the actual save file - the PM.
The corps commanders are meant to input their opinion about tactical plans.
For example:
S.W. front commander: Hey, airforce commander, I need air support, quickly!
A.F commander: I'm sorry I promised all my bombers to the northern and eastern fronts. I can give you 2 attack planes, and that's it.
(a minute later)
A.F. commander to Defense minister: we need more planes.
MoD: ok.
MoD to MoInterior: Build me a plane, near the southern front.
MoI: I can't.
MoD to PM and Chief of staff: Make the MoI build a plane near the souther front.
Everybody to the MoI: build a plane!!!
MoI: ok... ok...
quote:
Settlers: The Economy minister is in charge of settlers working for the public works, but the Interior minister is in charge of building new cities, dual ownership of the engineers??? |
no. The economy minister is in charge of settlers in all actions but building new cities. The interior minister orders to build Herzelia in sqaure 55,39, and the economy ministers says to the PM: hmmm, we have 4 settlers... ok, move the one on the left to 55,39 and make him build a city. Now, the rest 3 will be making a road...
quote:
The Court: The high Justice can overthrow an elected official without a vote??? |
Yes, assuming a trial finds that someone has made a very serious offense, I think it's justifiable.
quote:
The Court formulates new laws, so now we are putting the people who rule on points of law, creating the law? |
no no no.
The minister of justice formulates the law. He doesn't necessarily invent it. But he is the one responsible to write all the legal terms and things.
He's also the one that declares a law accepted or not (based on a poll which he posts of course, not his personal opinion), and then copies it to the "Israel law" section.
He's basically the government authority responsible for managing law making in the forums (ie, helps people who have law ideas to formulate them into a law suggestion, posts approval polls, and declares whether they have won or lost).
quote:
Whatever happened to the system of checks and balances? What kind of laws are we talking about here anyways? |
laws that govern the game / gameplay.
quote:
Comtroller: He makes criticisms of the game? Won't we all be criticiszing bad decisions, military operations? Can't anyone file a complaint with the court? |
yes, it's true. however, I think that there also should be a person whose job function is exactly this. While the usual players can do that if they want, he has a role to do it.
Because if for instance we are all held up in excitement about some military operation, it's his reponsability to try and find errors whether in the process or the content itself.
I think we need such an official "troll" that would seek problems and comment on them.
I think he also should be the one leading public investigations against embezelling officials.
quote:
Midlevel ministers: How are Defense, Interior, Economy, Justices, Foriegn ministers selected? |
my language wasn't clear. point taken.
They are selected by the PM that wins. They can be selected before or after the elections. better before IMO.
In the first CivIII DG we had each minister elected. That worked poorly, since sometimes you'd have conflicts. Half of the govt was peacefull and expansionist, half war like and perfectionist... .
Of course I don't know how it was solved, since I left after a few months.
quote:
Wrapping it up: I'd like to hear more about how elections and court cases would work, like what kind of cases would there be, types of rulings that could be handed out, etc, etc. |
Ok.
Elections (so far)
Declared by the President, once per set time, or following fall of government.
Each party presents a candidate. (Parties are registered at the President, according to specific laws)
Candidates are noted, and then the president makes a general elections poll. (for how long and other details, later)
Each candidate may (or if we decide, will be required to) present the government he will appoint.
*The candidate from the largest party (even if most people voted against it) is selected by the president to be the PM.
*(some of you may ask for a second round, but I remind you that we can't have a second round between parties, only between people. that's how it works in Israel)
The PM appoints his ministers (what happens if he presented X but later apponts Y? i dunno. suggest)
After X days, the PM and his govt, take over.
Elections for President
Elected less often than the government.
Elections are declared and called by the Justice Minister (someone has to, and it can't be neither himself nor Judges, since the President appoints judges).
Elected from personal candidates (while the PM must be a leader of the party, the president doesn't have to even be in a party. He can't lead a party, because he can't be PM and President at the same time).
Appoints the comptroller and historians as he sees fit / popular vote. I don't know really. I think that he can post polls, but doesn't have to. so if he has a clear idea who he wants - he can do it. I am afraid we'll have more votes than people. 
Justice system
judges and the high justice appointed by the president. I have no idea on what intervals, or whether it's for life or not. awaitign suggestions.
any person can petition the court about any issue. The court is bound by the laws and the site rules.
Each person is responsible for defending himself but can appoint a council (though it'll be messy).
The justice minister is usually the representative of the government (he deals with legal bussiness, so that the other ministers can continue planning / playing the game, unless ordered otherwise by the court).
The judges can make several demands - to freeze the gameplay, to freeze polls, to interview people, to watch chat transcripts and so on.
The judges can invalidate elections or polls and make decisions over which side is correct, and which is wrong. Their decision is final, until an appeals court finds a difference.
The judges must document the process, give time to people to prepare speeches and finally explain their decision.
Appeals court
The appeals court is resided by the high justice, who can ask the other justice (the one not active in original case) to assist him. However, while the high justice can ask for advice, he is not bound by it, and only his decision counts.
The high justice can read the previous court decision and overturn it or support it. But he can't directly question the previous judge. Everything the previous judge had to say, must be in the documented case.
High court
Cases which could affect the government / presidency, are automatically judged by a panel of 3 justices, with the High justice being in charge of the process (but only has 1 vote in the final decision).
Elections of Judges / President in Trial
If the president was sued in a potencial case of overthrow, and the justices decided to keep him, they must later stand to be re-elected by the parliament. in elections which are organized and supervised by the Minister of Justice.
This is the only case the parliament can vote for the judges, which are otherwise appointed by the President.
Why?
Because if they chose to leave a President in place, he may find himself to be biased in their favour, and automatically prolong their careers, choosing them over and over.
Warfare
The actual game will be performed only by the PM.
However, the MoD will be responsible for making threads about strategical / tactical maneuvers and planning warfare policy. The MoD will also make requests of the ministers reponsible, to build units, research techs, make alliances and so forth.
The Chief of Staff is responsible for the purely tactical side of warfare. He's the final authority on what unit goes where, and finalizies plans. He can ask the MoD for more units / intelligence / what ever.
The Chief of Staff should delegate planning authority, and real time tactical decisions, to the regional commands (though he can intervene).
The regional commands are assigned X troops by the Chief of staff, and are in charge of planning and giving orders where to move them.
The goal of that, is that each front, will have it's own amount of units, and will be able to make it's own plans of actions, with the Chief of Staff overseeing it, giving final advice, and maybe relocating units from one battle front to another.
The Air Corps and Navy Corps, are needed IMO because these are unique units, which provide battle support to regular grunts. They are more expensive and exist in smaller numbers, but have a high rate of movement (can quickly change battle fronts, if necessary).
The corps leader has X planes, and out of that, can decide how many planes he sends to the north, how many to the south etc.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
I don't understand the whole court process. What laws are we talking about. Are we going to have to write a 250 page constitution enumerating the laws of Israel? More explanation needed on this one. |
There would be laws about gameplay and things.
All the authorities of ministers, the cabinet structure, the time of elections, the chain of command.
Everything must be written down, so if anything goes wrong, we can petition the court. 
quote:
Although the corps idea is complicated, it would get more people involved in the game, and would follow real life more closely. Even in real war, the army sometimes gets abandoned, or crossed up, or miscommunicated with the airforce or navy. I'd love to see that happen here. I could just imagine the he-said-she-said (army-promised-navy-promised) arguments! |
lol
I would like it too. Though I really fear we won't have enough people both to fill the positions, and to sit in parliament.
quote:
Originally posted by Stefan Härtel
Hey guys, you will need to educate me a bit on Israeli politics if you want me to make a decent paper, BTW. I've browsed the net for Israeli sites about Israel, it's history in particular, but found nothing  |
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/index.html
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by H Tower
The first thing that jumps out at me is that we have 18 positions! so far only 15 people have voted yes in the poll for this thread, a difficulty to say the least.
There's a mistake made about the appointment of the Chief of Staff. The defense minister description says that he appoints the Chief, however the Chief description says that he is appointed by the Prime Minister.
Corps Commanders: I hate the idea of this so much it makes my blood boil when someone says that it would work. Let's say that we're laying a huge offensive on into Egypt. We have a few naval vessels that will be used for shore bombardment wherever the Army needs them, a Marine contingent to move along the coast, the Air Force to also provide support to the army, and finally the army itself. Now, for maximum success, the Army should push itself into Egypt as far as it can easily go, then use the Airforce to bust a whole in the Egyptian lines, then the army can move through the hole in the enemy lines until they get to the next roadblock, the navy takes care of that one, and then the army moves again. Sounds good, right? Well that just took 5 posted save files to get done, now consider that all of the fronts have some kind of combined arms operation going on, we would have 20-30 posted save files for only 1 turn! It would be chaos! Corp commanders are a TERRIBLE IDEA.
Settlers: The Economy minister is in charge of settlers working for the public works, but the Interior minister is in charge of building new cities, dual ownership of the engineers???
The Court: The high Justice can overthrow an elected official without a vote??? The Court formulates new laws, so now we are putting the people who rule on points of law, creating the law? Whatever happened to the system of checks and balances? What kind of laws are we talking about here anyways?
Comtroller: He makes criticisms of the game? Won't we all be criticiszing bad decisions, military operations? Can't anyone file a complaint with the court?
Midlevel ministers: How are Defense, Interior, Economy, Justices, Foriegn ministers selected?
Wrapping it up: I'd like to hear more about how elections and court cases would work, like what kind of cases would there be, types of rulings that could be handed out, etc, etc. |
I agree with H Tower on this one. Give all the units on a front to the front commander, we dont have enough people for all these positions. Just my two cents worth!
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EmuGod
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I'll present my government plan soon.
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yaroslav
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Madrid, Spain, Europe
Jun 2001
time: 06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Elections (so far)
Declared by the President, once per set time, or following fall of government.
Each party presents a candidate. (Parties are registered at the President, according to specific laws)
Candidates are noted, and then the president makes a general elections poll. (for how long and other details, later)
Each candidate may (or if we decide, will be required to) present the government he will appoint.
*The candidate from the largest party (even if most people voted against it) is selected by the president to be the PM.
*(some of you may ask for a second round, but I remind you that we can't have a second round between parties, only between people. that's how it works in Israel)
The PM appoints his ministers (what happens if he presented X but later apponts Y? i dunno. suggest)
After X days, the PM and his govt, take over.
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So, if I understand it correctly, your plot is to have a direct election on the PM and the Presidente. It's ok for me, but also could be interesting to have a Parlameint. However, a Parlameint means more players, and we've no a high number of them.
BTW, I think that if the PM don't appoint the minister I said he will appoint, it's upon the public to call for an election. I think that there should be a 'impeachment' process that could be initiated with enough citiziens votes. It will be better way, if there is no Parlameint.
quote:
Elections for President
Elected less often than the government.
Elections are declared and called by the Justice Minister (someone has to, and it can't be neither himself nor Judges, since the President appoints judges).
Elected from personal candidates (while the PM must be a leader of the party, the president doesn't have to even be in a party. He can't lead a party, because he can't be PM and President at the same time).
Appoints the comptroller and historians as he sees fit / popular vote. I don't know really. I think that he can post polls, but doesn't have to. so if he has a clear idea who he wants - he can do it. I am afraid we'll have more votes than people.
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If we don't have Parlameint, I think that the better way is direct election. However, I will say that the President also must to have a "impeachment" process if necesary.
quote:
Justice system
judges and the high justice appointed by the president. I have no idea on what intervals, or whether it's for life or not. awaitign suggestions.
any person can petition the court about any issue. The court is bound by the laws and the site rules.
Each person is responsible for defending himself but can appoint a council (though it'll be messy).
The justice minister is usually the representative of the government (he deals with legal bussiness, so that the other ministers can continue planning / playing the game, unless ordered otherwise by the court).
The judges can make several demands - to freeze the gameplay, to freeze polls, to interview people, to watch chat transcripts and so on.
The judges can invalidate elections or polls and make decisions over which side is correct, and which is wrong. Their decision is final, until an appeals court finds a difference.
The judges must document the process, give time to people to prepare speeches and finally explain their decision.
Appeals court
The appeals court is resided by the high justice, who can ask the other justice (the one not active in original case) to assist him. However, while the high justice can ask for advice, he is not bound by it, and only his decision counts.
The high justice can read the previous court decision and overturn it or support it. But he can't directly question the previous judge. Everything the previous judge had to say, must be in the documented case.
High court
Cases which could affect the government / presidency, are automatically judged by a panel of 3 justices, with the High justice being in charge of the process (but only has 1 vote in the final decision).
Elections of Judges / President in Trial
If the president was sued in a potencial case of overthrow, and the justices decided to keep him, they must later stand to be re-elected by the parliament. in elections which are organized and supervised by the Minister of Justice.
This is the only case the parliament can vote for the judges, which are otherwise appointed by the President.
Why?
Because if they chose to leave a President in place, he may find himself to be biased in their favour, and automatically prolong their careers, choosing them over and over.
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Very interesting. However, it is also very complex. I suggest to have only a judge for all instances, apointed by the President. If the President itselft is in trial, a new judge should be elected by direct vote. I think that the judge should stay in "power" the same time that the president, altough it can be confirmed by the next president and reamins in his/her role. What do you think?
quote:
Warfare
The actual game will be performed only by the PM.
However, the MoD will be responsible for making threads about strategical / tactical maneuvers and planning warfare policy. The MoD will also make requests of the ministers reponsible, to build units, research techs, make alliances and so forth.
The Chief of Staff is responsible for the purely tactical side of warfare. He's the final authority on what unit goes where, and finalizies plans. He can ask the MoD for more units / intelligence / what ever.
The Chief of Staff should delegate planning authority, and real time tactical decisions, to the regional commands (though he can intervene).
The regional commands are assigned X troops by the Chief of staff, and are in charge of planning and giving orders where to move them.
The goal of that, is that each front, will have it's own amount of units, and will be able to make it's own plans of actions, with the Chief of Staff overseeing it, giving final advice, and maybe relocating units from one battle front to another.
The Air Corps and Navy Corps, are needed IMO because these are unique units, which provide battle support to regular grunts. They are more expensive and exist in smaller numbers, but have a high rate of movement (can quickly change battle fronts, if necessary).
The corps leader has X planes, and out of that, can decide how many planes he sends to the north, how many to the south etc. |
I would agree that the Chief of Staff also should coordinate the work of all fronts, because it's very difficult to say when a front start and when a front ends (it's not as clear as in other games)
BTW, I've sent another PM to DanQ, telling him about my last PM and asking him if he has received it (maybe there was a problem!). I'm still waiting for an answer.
Thank you all for your patience
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Darkness' Edge
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I really like the idea of this game. I'll be involved for sure, if we get a forum...
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H Tower
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So should we send DanQ a thankyou for killing the game?
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11-08-2003 22:01
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is patient.
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