25-06-2003 01:42									#91
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Lancer retrieve the more ethical version of this question by replacing could with should.
There would be a much easier answer (at least for me)

	25-06-2003 03:14									#93
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...and?

	25-06-2003 04:04									#94
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark your unit, MTG?

Oh, **** no. Thank God. They were the sad sacks (2 armor battalions, 2 Mech. Inf. battalions) that were the roundout brigade to bring 24 ID (now 3 ID) up to authorized strength. When they got called up to active duty and got orders to integrate with 24 ID, their combat readiness was so poor compared to the rest of the division that they were run through four straight rotations at the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin, and McCaffrey decided they still weren't up to standard, and would actually be a detriment to 24 ID in the 1st Gulf war.

That gives you some idea of how absurd the notion of a mass mobilization "citizen army" thing is nowadays in the US Army.

	25-06-2003 04:17									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Not for a country with enough capacity to destroy the Earth.

Darling's Dilemma again.

The name comes from an Army Lt. Col. Ronald Darling (like the ex-MLB pitcher), who gave a briefing to the JCS under a program that gave up-and-coming O5 and O6 staff officers exposure to the top levels of the US military.

The format was that the briefing officer could prepare whatever scenario he wanted, and do a presentation based on that scenario.

In Darling's Dilemma, he took the role of the President, talking to the JCS as his senior military advisors. In the scenario, the Soviets had breached through the Fulda gap and launched a general offensive against western Europe, and by sheer force of numbers would overrun the defenders in place before reinforcements could be brought in.

Darling, as the hypothetical President, put two nuclear scenarios on the table:

1) A single tactical nuke onto the Soviet forces moving through the Fulda gap, cutting off the spearhead, and making the area impassable for a period of time, so that NATO could reinforce and the Soviets couldn't.

2) If there's no way to guarantee non-escalation into a general nuclear exchange after 1, could the US launch a pre-emptive strategic nuclear strike on the USSR, and take out enough of it's first strike capability to prevent a significant counterstrike against US population centers.

Darling told each of the members of the JCS (in his role as President), that he realized that none of them could offer a 100% guarantee on anything, but would any of them say, with reasonable professional certainty, that scenario 1 would be feasible without a general escalation, or that scenario 2 would be accomplishable to an extent necessary to prevent mass US civilian casualties from a counterstrike.

Not one member of the JCS was able to tell the President that he believed either scenario could be carried out successfully without an unpredictable and unquantifiable risk of escalation.

So Darling's Dilemma is this: Why do we spend money upgrading, replacing, and fielding these weapons, when we will never run the political risk of using them?

That was actually one of the drivers for Reagan's INF and strategic forces reduction talks with the Soviets.

	25-06-2003 04:31									#96
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...and does that dilemma apply when the opposition has no choice but to stick its thumb up their collective ass and wait for the ICMBs to arrive?

I don't know about you, but I feel pretty safe in dismissing Darling's provocative outcome when we're dealing with people who can barely afford 15$ rifles - not launch dozens of vehicles into outer space

(and don't get all internal placement on me, Sum of All Fears was a little too loose a scenario/bad a movie to forecast a multiplied future out of)

	25-06-2003 04:49									#97
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We could do it. There are econimies of scale, some of which you only really even learn when you need to stretch capacity.

	25-06-2003 04:55									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Serb NEVER. We will bury you, no matter what. Trust me.

In the sub game of cat and mouse we owned and still own your azzes.

	25-06-2003 05:02									#99
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quote: That was actually one of the drivers for Reagan's INF and strategic forces reduction talks with the Soviets.

Very interesting commentary.

What about complete reduction? Does the Darling dilemma support that argument?

	25-06-2003 05:51									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka ...and does that dilemma apply when the opposition has no choice but to stick its thumb up their collective ass and wait for the ICMBs to arrive? I don't know about you, but I feel pretty safe in dismissing Darling's provocative outcome when we're dealing with people who can barely afford 15$ rifles - not launch dozens of vehicles into outer space (and don't get all internal placement on me, Sum of All Fears was a little too loose a scenario/bad a movie to forecast a multiplied future out of)

The question is how does the rest of the world (the ones with nukes) react when you decide you want to bake a hundred million or so people in the world's biggest microwave oven, when they're non-nuclear powers.

You basically give the rest of the world a green light to go, and whisper in their ear "better hit first"

	25-06-2003 05:54									#101
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Very interesting commentary. What about complete reduction? Does the Darling dilemma support that argument?

Darling never went that far, or even went to a conclusion. As an O5, he knew that was well past his pay grade, and it's really a civilian policy question.

Simple thing is, we can never go totally non-nuclear, although a reduction from current levels is certainly feasible from all strategic considerations.

	25-06-2003 06:50									#102
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The question is how does the rest of the world (the ones with nukes) react when you decide you want to bake a hundred million or so people in the world's biggest microwave oven, when they're non-nuclear powers. You basically give the rest of the world a green light to go, and whisper in their ear "better hit first"

We can MOAB their cities instead of nuking them. America has the mean, but lacks the will to kill. A nuke on one of our cities would give us this will. The rest of the world wouldn't be happy, but they would understand.

	25-06-2003 08:01									#103
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Unfortunately, (a) You don't have T90s force wide. (b) The performance of the Russian Army in Chechnya indicates that your line doggies aren't any better or more professional than the Soviet army in Afghanistan (c) We just issue M60s to reserve units now, and even some of them have Abrams.

a) It's still MBT of Russia.
b) When was the last time when US tried to win a war vs. partisans? Let me guess....Vietnam, right?
c) Good for you.

quote: Civilians don't get to see things go "boom" much, so going is a natural response to the fun. Tankers in the US Army, though, are used to it, so they just go "How many is that we've gotten so far?"

Sure but those civilians are deligation of American designers, the guys who created Abrams tank. I guess they saw tanks in action no less then any veteran tankers.

quote: We don't need to - we don't allow anyone on the battlefield to live long enough to hit us.

Arrogance...great disadvantage.
Let me guess- no Abrams were lost during last Iraq war, right?
What the hell I saw in news then?

quote: BTW, does that iraqwar.ru site still say how badly we're getting our asses kicked by the Iraqis, courtesy of all that Russian intelligence and real time intercepts of our secured communications? I hope your "arena" system works better than your intelligence and comInt capabilities?

I have no idea what this site says now, but I guess war still goes on there. At least 40 American soldiers died since moment when Bush declared that war is over.

	25-06-2003 08:04									#104
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40 casualties is truly nothing considering its a war.... I realise that its officially over, but theres almost always fighting still after a war has been declared over.

	25-06-2003 10:57									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Serb, the T-34 and most immediate postWar designs where based on the American "Christie" tank suspension aquired in the '30's. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...russia/t-34.htm

Next thing you gonna tell me that all modern Russian tanks are based on French Renaults, because first Soviet tank was the copy of French tank. Soviets used foreign designs at the beggining, BUT it was only basement. They had no domesticaly produced tanks and were forced to use foreign experience, because they simply had no choice. When they gained a lot of experience they formed THEIR OWN aproach to tank design and THEIR OWN school of tank design. In 30's Soviet tank school and Soviet aproach to tank design were absolutely different from tank schools of any other country, as well as Soviet tank designs were absolutely different. It's absolutely incorect to say that T-34 was a copy of Christie in some way or another. Suspension of Christie, iirc was used in first Soviet tanks of BT series ('bystryi tank'- fast tank)- BT-1. Between first tank of BT series and first T-34 tank there were years of feild tests, of research, of constant modifications, improvments and tanks like: BT-2, BT-3, BT-4, BT-5, BT-7 and their various modifications.
Now could you explain to me HOW T-34 and most immediate postWar Soviet designs could have been based on the American "Christie" tank suspension aquired in the '30's? The immediate postWar Soviet designs were tanks of JS (Joseph Stalin) series. It was HEAVY TANKS. How anyone could use the same suspension in light, medium and heavy tanks at the same time is beyond me.

	25-06-2003 11:00									#106
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quote: Originally posted by GePap But the the Sherman was still the one tank that was produced in biggest numbers in WW2.

I always thought (and Lonestar's article says the same) that T-34 took the prize for that.

	25-06-2003 11:06									#107
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat There isn't an MBT in the world with rear or top armor than can take a Hellfire hit. There's a big advantage in having mobile air-launched platforms.

We were talking about Bradley vs. T-72, remember? Could you answer those questions:
Do you believe that Bradley's main gun could penatrate armor of T-72? Or do you believe that bradley could destroy T-72 with its ATGM?
And another question- is it possible do destroy Abrams by ATGM?

And one more thing
What's the point to shout everywhere that American IFV can destroy Iraqis T-72 with ATGM, if the same missiles can destroy American tanks as well?

	25-06-2003 11:15									#108
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Nope, those were M829A1 hits. The "Silver bullet" is the 40 mm Sabot round fired from the 120mm gun on the M1A1 and up Abrams. 40mm x ~800mm DU penetrator at ~2000 mps velocity. The big turret booms are due to the fact that the plasma spray is so effective it simultaneously cooks off everything in the entire tank, and if you catch one in that pathetically slow autoload process, you have everything right there to go kablooey. Instant fireworks show.

I had an amazing article, but lost it somewhere. It was a report about test done by US military. They bought some Russian ERA, placed it on old T-72 and start to shoot. Not a single penatration. Words such 'immune to our 'Silver bullets' were used quite often. There was no information about a distance from where tanks fired, however. If it was propaganda, then it was American propaganda, not Russian.

	25-06-2003 11:18									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy They couldn't have successfully invaded Germany. They could have raided deep into Germany or overrun the Sudentanland - but while they had a lot of forces on paper, the reaility on the ground were hugh shortages of ammo, fuel, and above all training.

The same was in SU. Red Army wasn't ready for war vs. Hitler in 1939. On paper they had 5 times more tanks then Germans, but most of them obsolete. Red Army's divisions weren't equipped with needed amount of supplies, ammo and new armament even in 1941.

	25-06-2003 11:46									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I always thought (and Lonestar's article says the same) that T-34 took the prize for that.

If memory serves Sherman's was indeed the largest produced Tank, that was one advantage the U.S held, considering the T-34 armor (atleast I think i'm thinking about the T-34) had 3-4 inches of armor (I think 3) and the most a Sherman could penetrate from the front was 2 inches, soldiers reportedly watched their shells bounce off the Russian tank. The best way to combat this was to sneak up on the T-34 and shoot it in the side (or some other vulnrable area, not 100% where this spot was) befor the T-34 could turn around and shoot back.
Basicly the early Shermans got slaughtered, the troops nick named them Ronsins after the lighter who's catch phrase of the time was "Always lights the first time"
So the number advantage was basicly all the Early shermans had. the later shermans were more competent though.


This is all true to the best of my knowledge, if i'm wrong on it, let me know please.

	25-06-2003 12:02									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Serb The same was in SU. Red Army wasn't ready for war vs. Hitler in 1939. On paper they had 5 times more tanks then Germans, but most of them obsolete. Red Army's divisions weren't equipped with needed amount of supplies, ammo and new armament even in 1941.

By the end of 1941, Red Army passed the Mobile Armored Warfare Tactics 101 and 102 the hard way.*

* - Just finished Guderians "Panzer leader", and these are his impressions.

	25-06-2003 13:39									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Serb, the T-34 and most immediate postWar designs where based on the American "Christie" tank suspension aquired in the '30's. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...russia/t-34.htm

This is like saying that all tanks designed and built by the Germans, the Russians, the Americans, the British, the French, etc, both then and now, are based on the Australian tank design from 1912...

[this was the first tank design, and De La Mole is credited as the "inventor" of the tank]

http://inventors.about.com/library/...=ss11_inventors

check out the entry for 1912.

	25-06-2003 14:17									#113
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quote: Originally posted by GP In the sub game of cat and mouse we owned and still own your azzes.

WTF? Perhaps your scientists finally created something at least aproximately equal to our Typhoon class subs? Or perhaps your spies finally stolen blueprints of the best torpedo in the world- a Russian-made "Shkval" torpedo?


As for cat and mouse game...I'll try to find you an article which says how entire American fleet tried to catch Kursk in Mediterranian after Kursk made successfull training attack and "destroyed" American carrier. Btw, they failed.

	25-06-2003 15:27									#114
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Darling's dilemma?

--------------

"Lancer retrieve the more ethical version of this question by replacing could with should.
There would be a much easier answer (at least for me)"

Ata, certainly there's no good reason for such a mobilization now, hopefully never will be.

	25-06-2003 17:12									#115
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Hey, I've been investing my precious time to shed some light on the original topic of this thread and none of you can ever bother to say "thank you"? You damn tank-aficionados!

	25-06-2003 17:15									#116
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Anyway, which do you think was the better MBT, overall, T-34/85, the latest mod of Pzkfw V or the Sherman?

	25-06-2003 17:22									#117
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Colon, quit spamming my thread with this...data! Yeesh! Btw...
When you look at Soviet tank figures being so high, consider that the US build something like hundreds of thousands of trucks for them. If they had to build their own trucks...they don't build nearly so many tanks.

"In case anyone's interested in a couple of data sheets...

Share of world manufacturing output:

US
1929: 43.3%
1932: 31.8%
1937: 35.1%
1938: 28.7%

USSR
1929: 5.0%
1932: 11.5%
1937: 14.1%
1938: 17.6%

Germany:
1929: 11.1%
1932: 10.6%
1937: 11.4%
1938: 13.2%

Steel output in 1938:

US: 26.4 million tonnes
Germany: 20.7 million
USSR: 16.5 million

Please keep in mind, that output doesn't correctly reflect capacity because of the Great Depression. The US had enormous unutilised capacity, about 2/3's of its steel plant capacity wasn't utilised for instance. The economies of the USSR and Germany were operating near maximum in the later 30's. This would suggest US' steel capacity was 4 to 5 times as large as USSR's when WW2 began.

Tank production in 1944:

US: 17,500 (29,500 in 1943)
Germany: 17,800
USSR: 29,000

Accumulated aircraft production in 1939 to 1945:

US: 324,750 planes (biggest in a single year: 96.318 in '44)
USSR: 158,218 planes (40,300 in '44)
Germany: 117,881 planes (39,807 in '44)

USSR's manufacturing was affected less than the gains Germany made would suggest. Stalin had the foresight to locate the country's heavy industry near the Ural mountain chain, far out of range of Germany's war machine."

	25-06-2003 17:49									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Anyway, which do you think was the better MBT, overall, T-34/85, the latest mod of Pzkfw V or the Sherman?

I'll go for the Pzkfw V, the name sounds pretty darn advanced.

	25-06-2003 19:17									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Serb WTF? Perhaps your scientists finally created something at least aproximately equal to our Typhoon class subs? Or perhaps your spies finally stolen blueprints of the best torpedo in the world- a Russian-made "Shkval" torpedo? As for cat and mouse game...I'll try to find you an article which says how entire American fleet tried to catch Kursk in Mediterranian after Kursk made successfull training attack and "destroyed" American carrier. Btw, they failed.

ARticle in USNI Proceedings by a Russian Naval officer says that the Kursk simulated attack on a carrier was the first in 4 years. We OWNED you guys. No kidding.

	25-06-2003 21:06									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless We can MOAB their cities instead of nuking them. America has the mean, but lacks the will to kill. A nuke on one of our cities would give us this will. The rest of the world wouldn't be happy, but they would understand.

What have you been smoking? A terrorist organization kills American civilians with a nuke, so the US response is to kill civilians who mostly have nothing to do with the terrorists (whether a dictatorial regime hosts them or looks the other way has little to do with the targets) and the rest of the world "would understand"

Mass killing of civilians by nations who allegedly follow international law is a bit passe.