27-06-2003 04:28									#151
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However, the mere fact that Hillary was a partner in the Mudge, Rose law firm at the time Bill was governor was not in and of itself a corrupt act.

And frankly, though I'm a Democrat, I think Bush is an inept moron who's been lucky so far, don't think much of Scalia, and hold Thomas in utter contempt, the result wrt the election fiasco in Florida was the correct result under Florida and Federal law. Bush won the election, Gore pissed away all his advantages and came down to a cracker state he never expected to win, and he ****ed up. Get over it.

You've got 2004 to start frothing at the mouth over, 2000 is passe.

Last edited by MichaeltheGreat on 27-06-2003 at 04:50

	27-06-2003 04:43									#152
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat and came down to a cracker state he never expected to win,

Heh heh, I've started a new meme!

	27-06-2003 04:49									#153
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Nope, I've been insulting my lesser-bred, deeper-south brethren here for years now.

	27-06-2003 04:52									#154
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WooHoo! All those gays who have been prevented from stabbing each other in the poop shute may now commence!

A great step froward for mankind!

	27-06-2003 04:53									#155
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Lancer DIE!

	27-06-2003 04:54									#156
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Nope, I've been insulting my lesser-bred, deeper-south brethren here for years now.

You sound like a Virginian!

	27-06-2003 04:54									#157
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"Lancer DIE!"

In time...

	27-06-2003 04:57									#158
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Your ruined the whole thing... with this mortality crap.... Ack!... May you suffer a thousand virgins!

	27-06-2003 05:02									#159
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar You sound like a Virginian!

The oldest line of the family with continuous records landed in Roanoke on HMS Primrose in 1635. There's another line that dates to 1618, but a couple of generations of records missing, so we don't know with hundred percent certainty if they are ancestors, or just coincidental as to name and origin. Fairly highly probable, though.

	27-06-2003 05:07									#160
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Good for you, Scalia. Now defenders of democracies are swine Boris?

Oh, bull ****.

"The people decided..."

"Let the people decide..."

People are uninformed! Bigorty results from a lack of interaction or knowledge. EVERY SINGLE ONE of my friends that I've known who was once bigoted toward gays became tolerant upon hearing that I was gay. Education, discussion, and exposure to homosexuals in a casual way -- rather than as propagandized, hideous AIDS-infected sex freaks -- would gladly change "public opinion."

Of course, EDUCATION about real-life gay issues (as well as on one particular, recent war) is never the goal of any conservative. It is about playing on ignorance, fear, and alienation. Gays are an accecptable target when they are a distant enemy -- much like the Muslim "fanatical" Iraqis.

If conserrvatives educated the public about the poor, minorities, women's rights, and other liberal "agendas," public opinion would greatly change. It's in advocating ignorance, distance, and isolation that hatred toward any groups -- especially gays -- is allowed to continue.

Therefore, Scalia is a fork-tongued idiot.

-Ben

	27-06-2003 05:30									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer WooHoo! All those gays who have been prevented from stabbing each other in the poop shute may now commence! A great step froward for mankind!

quote: Lancer DIE!

I can so hear you saying this...

@ this thread

ah... 'poly entertains me once again... I was actually thinking about not comin back after my ban (because im busy and should be spending my time more wisely). what was i thinking

	27-06-2003 06:07									#162
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quote: Plato, the Constitution is an old document and the exact intent of the framers is not really known. Because of this, it is interpreted differently by different people.

Yeah, those Founders couldn't write english or leave behind their thoughts on the Constitution. The problems arise from the fact that in the 1790's, Congress voted on whether or not constitutional provisions not explicitly limiting state power should restrict the states anyway. The House voted that the states should be bound by certain limitations, like due process and the 1st Amendment, and the Senate voted against the proposition. So the states were not bound by the entire Constitution until passage of the 14th Amendment which created dual citizenship for Americans, i.e., we are not only citizens of our respective states, but US citizens. However, the SCOTUS and the states have not been consistent in applying the 14th Amendment, we have some religious freedom and due process protections (sort of), but the states/cities can still ban guns.

As for the ruling, the 3 dissenters are not endorsing state laws against homosexuality (regardless of their personal feelings), they are just upholding the constitutional notion of federalism, i.e., the 10th Amendment and separation of powers. But to do that, they have to ignore the "equal protection" clauses of the 5th and 14th Amendments. But it sounds like the majority of 6 didn't base this on equal protection, but on "privacy". Well, why does this privacy not extend to so many other activities consenting adults do in their homes? Like pot use, polygamy, etc...?

	27-06-2003 06:15									#163
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quote: If conserrvatives educated the public about the poor, minorities, women's rights, and other liberal "agendas," public opinion would greatly change.

Yes, and if liberals (who btw run plenty of the schools... I don't understand where conservatives dominated education :hmm educated the public on large and massive the tax code was, how much we are taxed, how Guiliani saved New York City by being 'tough on crime' and other 'conservative' agendas public opinion would greatly change... to the right.

Jeez... if you teach kids some agenda suddenly a lot of them believe it when they are older. Who'd have thunk it .

--

Oh, and Sava, another example (since you don't like the Clinton's either), Thurgood Marshall (I'm sure you've heard of him) was an NAACP lawyer, and then when he was on the SCOTUS he did not recuse himself from law suits that the NAACP brought up. Are you going to be consistant and call Justice Marshall corrupt as well?

	27-06-2003 06:21									#164
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Yes, but speaking candidly about a minority group is different from "TAXES ARE GOOD!" or other economic, national, issues.

Social issues are not in the same field. And whether or not liberal educators are predominant in the school systems is irrelevant; tax money -- as delegated by conservative legislatures -- forbids education on such issues.

Take AIDS relief money, for example, or the rejection of funds to libraries that allow minors to view inappropriate material?

I am not saying pornography is educational, but conservatives outcry the same stupid things: gays are not real families, children's minds should not be infested with such immoral trash, blah blah blah.

It is not about creating a propaganda-fed army on left vs. right, but on relating people as relateable rather than people as alien, foreign entities.

-Ben

	27-06-2003 06:25									#165
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People do speak more candidately about minority groups.... or did you miss all those Black History Months in your schooling? What about the greater influence on Latinos as well. And the country has continued to lurch right. So your conclusion makes no sense.

quote: tax money -- as delegated by conservative legislatures -- forbids education on such issues.

When every legislature in the country is conservative, come speak to me. Until then its silly to use this as an argument.

Furthermore, legislatures FORBID education on minority groups? Really, are you kidding me? I want to know the bills that say schools can't teach minority stuff. I want to see where they try to prevent it.

	27-06-2003 06:38									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Guiliani saved New York City by being 'tough on crime' and other 'conservative' agendas public opinion would greatly change... to the right.

We'll try to remember to thank Giuliani when we get out of the crippling economic crisis his policies left us in.

	27-06-2003 06:41									#167
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Without him, your city would still be known as a murder capital. You should at least thank him for that .

And of course 9/11 would have nothing to do with the bad economy in NYC .

	27-06-2003 06:45									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Without him, your city would still be known as a murder capital. You should at least thank him for that .

Questionable. The murder rate was declining when Giuliani came to power, and is now climbing again, despite no change in how the NYPD is operating (they're as draconian as ever). Why? Economic good times.

quote: And of course 9/11 would have nothing to do with the bad economy in NYC .

Even without September 11th, we would still be screwed today. Not quite as screwed, but still screwed. Giuliani spent the last two years of his administration on his marriage woes moreso than the city's issues. Had Sept. 11th not happened, he would have left office fairly unpopular (his approval ratings were quite low before the attacks).

	27-06-2003 06:48									#169
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quote: Questionable. The murder rate was declining when Giuliani came to power, and is now climbing again, despite no change in how the NYPD is operating (they're as draconian as ever). Why? Economic good times.

But would economic good times account for ALL of that? I mean are crime rates now as they were in the Dinkins and Koch years?

quote: Even without September 11th, we would still be screwed today. Not quite as screwed, but still screwed.

Everyone would with the bubble bursting, but it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

quote: Had Sept. 11th not happened, he would have left office fairly unpopular (his approval ratings were quite low before the attacks).

I realize that, but he was quite popular OUTSIDE the city .

	27-06-2003 06:53									#170
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Fine, take my (fairly obvious) hyperbole out into literal context. Conservatives rally people into believing that their money is being used to support homosexual propaganda. It is about creating division and inciting fear.

And yes, my high school did celebrate a latino history, and black history month. It also had a school GSA and a "Day of Silence" in observance of gay abuse.

But -- does that stop students from asking a woman perfoming a Harriet Tubman skit from asking "Why isn't there a Caucasian Awareness Club?"

There are months set aside for history or diversity, but nothing of importance was learned in them. True tolerance of minority groups -- including gays -- at my inner-city school was due to co-existing with them, or if not co-exisitng, simply by a force of association.

Suburbia and conservatism work at keeping those boundaries, to play both sides against one another so that a 3rd party can achieve power.

That cannot be denied.

-Ben

Last edited by Novaya Havoc on 27-06-2003 at 06:59

	27-06-2003 06:54									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But would economic good times account for ALL of that? I mean are crime rates now as they were in the Dinkins and Koch years?

Not yet, but they could conceivably get there. I certainly don't feel quite as safe as I did 3 years ago when I moved here. I wouldn't say Giuliani deserves no credit for the crime rate, he does. And not all that much else. And I think we're beginning to see the cons of his leadership may have outweighed the pros.

quote: Everyone would with the bubble bursting, but it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

Likewise, I'd argue that had Giuliani acted with sound fiscal management, things wouldn't be nearly as bad as they are and we would have been able to absorb the blow of Sept. 11th better.

quote: I realize that, but he was quite popular OUTSIDE the city .

As nice as it must be to be loved by somebody, it really was the opinion of NYC residents that counted, since they were the ones subjected to his administrative shortcomings.

	27-06-2003 06:55									#172
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quote: Thurgood Marshall (I'm sure you've heard of him) was an NAACP lawyer, and then when he was on the SCOTUS he did not recuse himself from law suits that the NAACP brought up. Are you going to be consistant and call Justice Marshall corrupt as well?

I'm not familiar with the case, but from what I've heard, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as Scalia and his corrupt friends. I'd have to know more about the situation before making a decision.

	27-06-2003 06:58									#173
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quote: But -- does that stop students from asking a woman perfoming a Harriet Tubman skit from asking "Why isn't there a Caucasian Awareness Club?"

It's a good question . Black History should be woven in, not have a whole month, when you fail to talk about the Cold War in your class.

quote: Suburbia and conservatism work at keeping those boundaries, to play both sides against one another to achieve power. That cannot be denied.

I'm denying it. Yep, just did .

quote: I'd argue that had Giuliani acted with sound fiscal management, things wouldn't be nearly as bad as they are and we would have been able to absorb the blow of Sept. 11th better.

When this is happening all over the country it is hard (IMO) to blame one politican (even if it is Gray Davis in California). Even if you blame Guiliani, he ain't the only one that deserves blame.

And you have to admit that Guiliani handled the 9/11 situation MUCH better than Messenger (I believe that was his opponent in his last election) would probably have.

	27-06-2003 07:02									#174
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Caucasian Awareness Month = US History / AP European History (both of which I have taken)

Caucasian Awarness Club = National Honor Society

There is not a class -- in High School -- where I can learn about the history of the Khmers, or about Songhai, but I can write a term paper on the history, possession, and partitioning of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.

I went to a Catholic, suburban school for most of my life. I prefer integration and my urban secondary education, thank you. Bark all you'd like: conservatism is division.

-Ben

	27-06-2003 07:06									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [QUOTE]When this is happening all over the country it is hard (IMO) to blame one politican (even if it is Gray Davis in California). Even if you blame Guiliani, he ain't the only one that deserves blame.

So because Giuliani isn't the only one to blame, he should get no blame?

quote: And you have to admit that Guiliani handled the 9/11 situation MUCH better than Messenger (I believe that was his opponent in his last election) would probably have.

No way of knowing, any moreso than the specious claims that Bush handled it better than Gore would have.

Regardless, Giuliani didn't really do much after Sept. 11th other than appear calm on TV and present a stiff upper lip for NY. I'm not saying that's nothing, but it ain't much. He was a lame duck mayor, and the coordination of rescue efforts was out of his hands thanks to FEMA.

It was a clear case of the times making the man. He rode the wave of popularity generated by his prominent position as NYC mayor after the attacks. He should be thankful it erased the sour memories of the previous two years filled with his marital woes, police depatment excesses and racial antagonism filling the headlines.

	27-06-2003 07:07									#176
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quote: So because Giuliani isn't the only one to blame, he should get no blame?

There's a lot of that going around lately.

	27-06-2003 07:08									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Sava There's a lot of that going around lately.

Ken Lay is relieved!

	27-06-2003 07:10									#178
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quote: Ken Lay is relieved!

I bet. He should be burned at the stake for wasting tens of millions of taxpayer dollars.

The whole "not-guilty because everyone's doing it" is the common excuse I hear from most posters who defend corruption in the government.

	27-06-2003 07:32									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Novaya Havoc But -- does that stop students from asking a woman perfoming a Harriet Tubman skit from asking "Why isn't there a Caucasian Awareness Club?"

I would have told the student, they already have one, it's called America.

	27-06-2003 07:33									#180
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat And frankly, though I'm a Democrat . . . .

huh??