01-07-2003 09:44									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Degree of evidence available. In some questions, such as whether evolution is true, we have of evidence to help us draw our conclusions. Presently, scientific evidence proving either the existence or non-existence of God(of course it is impossible to prove a negative in the case), without as much to work with we are forced to rely more on reason. It depends on the amount of evidence available.

inner conviction=reason? hardly. u've changed the context entirely.

	01-07-2003 09:47									#92
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon inner conviction=reason? hardly. u've changed the context entirely.

Reason, or inner conviction. It becomes more and more acceptable to base your beliefs on that which is other then reason the less evidence you have.

	01-07-2003 10:02									#93
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quote: Supposing they had said the invisible unicorn who lives on the Moon instead of the Lochness Monster. Would that make it better?

No. The abilities and location of the unicorn and Nessie are still so different as to make the comparison laughable.

	01-07-2003 10:54									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Reason, or inner conviction. It becomes more and more acceptable to base your beliefs on that which is other then reason the less evidence you have.

reason and inner conviction have nothing to do w/ each other. except perhaps that most ppl who have inner conviction don't find it unreasonable. but otherwise they're completely disparate terms and lumping them in is just silly.

I would propose logically that it is never acceptable to base beliefs on that which is illogical. u simply cant say "i dont know so I"ll pick one." and find that to be anything but a gigantic logical target.

	01-07-2003 11:17									#95
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Yavoon:

Do you think logic is the only source of truth ?

	01-07-2003 11:19									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yavoon: Do you think logic is the only source of truth ?

that and hormones.

	01-07-2003 11:28									#97
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Simple enough

	01-07-2003 11:39									#98
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"reason and inner conviction have nothing to do w/ each other. except perhaps that most ppl who have inner conviction don't find it unreasonable. but otherwise they're completely disparate terms and lumping them in is just silly."

They are both alike in that neither use scientific evidence.

"I would propose logically that it is never acceptable to base beliefs on that which is illogical. "

OK, that is your belief. But it isn't a contradiction in my beliefs that it is ok under some circumstances for someone not to use logic.

	01-07-2003 11:42									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "reason and inner conviction have nothing to do w/ each other. except perhaps that most ppl who have inner conviction don't find it unreasonable. but otherwise they're completely disparate terms and lumping them in is just silly." They are both alike in that neither use scientific evidence. "I would propose logically that it is never acceptable to base beliefs on that which is illogical. " OK, that is your belief. But it isn't a contradiction in my beliefs that it is ok under some circumstances for someone not to use logic.

haha now we get to define what contradictions are and aren't? aren't we the malleable one.

reason and logic form the foundation for all of science. u mean empirical evidence? logic can use empirical evidence, sherlock holmes? at any rate an inner conviction is not constrained by logic and I think that was made specifically clear in the question. and beyond that there is no reason to tie it to logic, cuz if u did then it could be attacked from the outside.

	01-07-2003 12:07									#100
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"haha now we get to define what contradictions are and aren't? "

Do you understand what a contradiction is? Having your beliefs being wrong does not mean there are a contradiction in them. A contradiction implies that a belief is not consistent with itself.

"reason and logic form the foundation for all of science. u mean empirical evidence? logic can use empirical evidence, sherlock holmes? at any rate an inner conviction is not constrained by logic and I think that was made specifically clear in the question. and beyond that there is no reason to tie it to logic, cuz if u did then it could be attacked from the outside."

First off, use capitalization. It makes your posts easier to read it makes you look more intelligent.

"reason and logic form the foundation for all of science. "

No they don't, the scientific method is based on empiricism.


"logic can use empirical evidence, sherlock holmes? "

Agathon or elijah can correct me if I am wrong on this point, but while you can make logical judgements on statements related to empirical evidence, logic is not about empirical evidence.

The scientific method is based upon making various hypotheses about events, testing them, and going with the theory that best explains the pheonomona in question.

"at any rate an inner conviction is not constrained by logic and I think that was made specifically clear in the question. and beyond that there is no reason to tie it to logic, cuz if u did then it could be attacked from the outside"

What is your point? Not even the test claimed it was a contradiction to believe relying on inner convictions is OK. It certainly is not a contradiction to believe it is OK to hold illogical beliefs in some circumstances.

	01-07-2003 12:12									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "haha now we get to define what contradictions are and aren't? " Do you understand what a contradiction is? Having your beliefs being wrong does not mean there are a contradiction in them. A contradiction implies that a belief is not consistent with itself. "reason and logic form the foundation for all of science. u mean empirical evidence? logic can use empirical evidence, sherlock holmes? at any rate an inner conviction is not constrained by logic and I think that was made specifically clear in the question. and beyond that there is no reason to tie it to logic, cuz if u did then it could be attacked from the outside." First off, use capitalization. It makes your posts easier to read it makes you look more intelligent. "reason and logic form the foundation for all of science. " No they don't, the scientific method is based on empiricism. "logic can use empirical evidence, sherlock holmes? " Agathon or elijah can correct me if I am wrong on this point, but while you can make logical judgements on statements related to empirical evidence, logic is not about empirical evidence. The scientific method is based upon making various hypotheses about events, testing them, and going with the theory that best explains the pheonomona in question. "at any rate an inner conviction is not constrained by logic and I think that was made specifically clear in the question. and beyond that there is no reason to tie it to logic, cuz if u did then it could be attacked from the outside" What is your point? Not even the test claimed it was a contradiction to believe relying on inner convictions is OK. It certainly is not a contradiction to believe it is OK to hold illogical beliefs in some circumstances.

how do u logically justify holding illogical beliefs in some circumstances but not others..that even makes me laugh.

I don't care how intelligent I look, thats whats great about a forum, I not arguing for money or anything.

u don't find the scientific method a logical way of determining the most likely cause for an event? even math is based on logic. and math pervades all of science. its hard to even separate the two sometimes. its completely ludicrous to say science doesn't use logic.

and to finish IT IS POSSIBLE that ur belief system is a contradiction. simply having one doesn't make it consistent. u can't say "I believe this therefore it is not a contradiction." I mean even the pc police won't give that one to u.

	01-07-2003 14:17									#102
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Since we are getting back to pink unicorns again (why are atheists so absessed by pink unicorns? ) let me ask a leading question.

Let's assume that a new effect was discovered tomorrow which was inconsistant with modern science, i.e. it can't be expained by our current theories in principle, not just because the maths is too hard. Would you

1. entertain the possibility that it could never be explained by science?

2. be 100% sure that it is, in principle, explainable, ie. that some scientific theory exists that would explain it, even if we do not (or never will) know it?

If you say 1 then you are admitting that there may be things beyond science. So why is it so difficult to entertain the idea that there is a god?

If you say 2 you are displaying a faith in science. We do not know and can never prove that everything in the universe is explainable. Why is your faith in science any more justified than my faith in God?

	01-07-2003 15:02									#103
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quote: Why is your faith in science any more justified than my faith in God?

That's a question I've wanted an answer to for years. I hope you wrestle it out of someone.

	01-07-2003 15:32									#104
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Over the years, it gave better results.

	01-07-2003 15:40									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten No. The abilities and location of the unicorn and Nessie are still so different as to make the comparison laughable.

Totally specious reasoning. You know no more about the abilities of these things than you do God, really. What if God is the invisible unicorn on the moon? (no pink was mentioned).

To answer Rogan's question, considering that we have literally tens of thousands of historical precedents for things which were previously inexplicable being proven as explicable science, and not a one for something being proven to be the work of a god, then assuming their is a natural explanation for phenomenon is far more rational.

Supernatural claims require extraordinary proof.

	01-07-2003 15:41									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Why is your faith in science any more justified than my faith in God? That's a question I've wanted an answer to for years. I hope you wrestle it out of someone.

You haven't looked hard enough then, because the answer is both obvious and has been around for years. Just ask a scientist.

	01-07-2003 15:52									#107
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RJ is a scientist.

	01-07-2003 15:55									#108
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*nods*

*nods*

*nods*

	01-07-2003 16:36									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You haven't looked hard enough then, because the answer is both obvious and has been around for years. Just ask a scientist.

Well, since I don't know your 'obvious' answer, perhaps you will enlighten us?

	01-07-2003 16:58									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You haven't looked hard enough then, because the answer is both obvious and has been around for years. Just ask a scientist.

Isn't talking to yourself one of the first signs of insanity?

	01-07-2003 18:05									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Let's assume that a new effect was discovered tomorrow which was inconsistant with modern science, i.e. it can't be expained by our current theories in principle, not just because the maths is too hard. Would you 1. entertain the possibility that it could never be explained by science? 2. be 100% sure that it is, in principle, explainable, ie. that some scientific theory exists that would explain it, even if we do not (or never will) know it? If you say 1 then you are admitting that there may be things beyond science. So why is it so difficult to entertain the idea that there is a god? If you say 2 you are displaying a faith in science. We do not know and can never prove that everything in the universe is explainable. Why is your faith in science any more justified than my faith in God?

I believe that there are laws of nature that would could explain the phenomena. As far as I am concerned nature must be able to understand itself. Whether these laws can be explained in a scientific manner, I wouldn't be sure.

* - Laws of Science, with few exceptions, are inaccurate approximations of the truth, and are of limited range of application. If scientific laws are inaccurate then presumably there must be some other laws which are accurate, which are not approximation to the truth but are literally true - these are Laws of Nature.

	01-07-2003 18:51									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Well, since I don't know your 'obvious' answer, perhaps you will enlighten us?

I gave it my previous post.

DD, what do you mean? I was talking to Drake.

	01-07-2003 19:49									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I gave it my previous post.

Do you mean this?

quote: To answer Rogan's question, considering that we have literally tens of thousands of historical precedents for things which were previously inexplicable being proven as explicable science, and not a one for something being proven to be the work of a god, then assuming their is a natural explanation for phenomenon is far more rational.

First of all, tens of thousands is a bit much. Secondly, these have almost entirely been discoveries in a rather narrow range of environments. Furthermore, the use of science is not in question here - it is undeniably useful and has proven to be so over the years. I am not attempting to knock science. But, as Big Crunch points out, we are presumably just seeing approximations of some 'theory of everything' and therefore are only testing one aspect of nature. The question is: is this really 'everything'? Is everything describable by 'laws'? If you believe it to be true then you must, like BC, leave behind notions of free-will and sentience.

I personally do not believe this to be the case. I think there will be some part of the universe which is not correctly desribed by the 'theory of everything' and cannot be in principle. In other words I believe there are phenomena were the principle of scientific reproducability breaks down.

By contrast you (and BC) are saying that all experiments are reproducable (in principle if not in practice). This is an assumption. It is an assumption I make in my work every day, and has never been shown to be false, but it is still an assumption. There is absolutely no need nor evidence for this to be true. What is the difference between believing in this and believing that there is an invisible unicorn (of any colour) on the moon?

	01-07-2003 20:49									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy That chipamzee could still do it in much less than 3 months, assuming reasonable breaks, at random. With training - oh, half a day?

But you have to first train the chimp to use a mouse to click on various boxes

	01-07-2003 20:53									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Let's assume that a new effect was discovered tomorrow which was inconsistant with modern science, i.e. it can't be expained by our current theories in principle, not just because the maths is too hard. Would you 1. entertain the possibility that it could never be explained by science? 2. be 100% sure that it is, in principle, explainable, ie. that some scientific theory exists that would explain it, even if we do not (or never will) know it? If you say 1 then you are admitting that there may be things beyond science. So why is it so difficult to entertain the idea that there is a god? If you say 2 you are displaying a faith in science. We do not know and can never prove that everything in the universe is explainable. Why is your faith in science any more justified than my faith in God?

1. No. Such events occurred more than once in the history of science. Why should we think this one is different?

2. Explain "explainable"

Why is it so difficult to let go of a concept that has utterly no basis in facts? You are a scientist, aren't you?

	01-07-2003 21:19									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I personally do not believe this to be the case. I think there will be some part of the universe which is not correctly desribed by the 'theory of everything' and cannot be in principle. In other words I believe there are phenomena were the principle of scientific reproducability breaks down. By contrast you (and BC) are saying that all experiments are reproducable (in principle if not in practice). This is an assumption. It is an assumption I make in my work every day, and has never been shown to be false, but it is still an assumption. There is absolutely no need nor evidence for this to be true. What is the difference between believing in this and believing that there is an invisible unicorn (of any colour) on the moon?

1) No evidence (or sampling) has been made into the existence of the invisible pink unicorn, whether pro-or anti. We have not attempted to confirm or deny any hypothesis.

2) Evidence (or sampling) has been made into the correctness of scientific laws, phenomena have been explained. We can thus say that we have a degree of confidence, how high is up to your interpretation of the data.


Now compare to someone testing the bias on a coin.

1) Person one does not toss their coin at all, and so is completely unsure if it has any biases.

2) Person two tosses their coin several times, and on each occasion it comes up heads.

Based on these facts who has the more acceptable claim that their coin is a two-headed coin, or biased? Clearly person 2). Of course this does not mean that its the case, just that one claim is more believable than the other.