10-07-2003 12:21									#121
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quote: Originally posted by muxec People, friendly fire accidents always happen, and sometimes nobody knows who was guilty. I cant get the point... What are you discusing for a 100+ posts?

Give me an example of FF incident where a big ship was almost sunk.

	10-07-2003 12:23									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Give me an example of FF incident where a big ship was almost sunk.

Numerous cases during WW2.
Iraq sunk one of our ships in the mid 80s.
The US shot down an Iranian civilian airplane with hundreds aboard.
A russian civilian plane was shot down a year(?) or so ago, above the Ukrane.
Need more examples?

	10-07-2003 12:23									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Except a distress call was made.. That was incompetent, wasn't it?

A distress call was made as a result of damage control parties jury rigging equipment. Some men lost their lives in that process, and several were grievously wounded. I guess your strike planners didn't account for the fact that the US Navy has the best shipboard damage control in the world, or that the Liberty crew had a lot of very competent personnel.

Of course, Ennes and the Liberty crew are all vicious anti-Semites with no motivation other than to lie and damage poor, sweet, innocent Israel. Or is the official line that they're all whining neurotics who are so consumed with a desire to blame the people who attacked them repeatedly for the fact that they were sailing in the wrong part of the Med for the convenience of those who attacked them?

quote: You mean the A-4's that were scheduled for arrival in December 1967 (and were matched with arm sales to Jordan?) - albeit via Germany, who succumbed to Arab pressure not to sell arms to Israel ? I couldn't find any mention of F-4's. I take your point that LBJ did offer to sell the planes before the war, but they were far from Israel's main supplier. Most of Israel's air force were French Mirages.

Like I said, at the time, we had priority issues a few thousand miles to the east. So Israel wasn't our number one ass to kiss from it's inception.

quote: Umm, yeah. The rest of the Middle East?

I don't think we sold much to Nasser, et al. Jordan was another story - we liked Kings, Shahs, etc., who weren't looking to cozy up with the commies. Sorry you didn't get monopoly status, but if the promised land would have had oil under it, we might have been more accomodating earlier on.

	10-07-2003 12:30									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Numerous cases during WW2. Iraq sunk one of our ships in the mid 80s. The US shot down an Iranian civilian airplane with hundreds aboard. A russian civilian plane was shot down a year(?) or so ago, above the Ukrane. Need more examples?

1. 1967 is a long way from WW in terms of electronic intel and common sense. Also, in WW2 the seas were crawling with ships.
2. Iraq is hardly a friendly nation.
3. We're talking ships here. Ships don't zip past you at 700 kts.
4. You can't blame electonic malfunction. Those were real Israeli pilots in those planes, using human judgement.

Those are not valid examples, so yes, please give more.

	10-07-2003 12:39									#125
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Of course, Ennes and the Liberty crew are all vicious anti-Semites with no motivation other than to lie and damage poor, sweet, innocent Israel. Or is the official line that they're all whining neurotics who are so consumed with a desire to blame the people who attacked them repeatedly for the fact that they were sailing in the wrong part of the Med for the convenience of those who attacked them?

No, I don't think they have any sevret motivation or malice, either (though I do think some that espouse the conspiracy theories, do). I think they were in a bad situation when they were attacked , and - understandably - put their anger into the ones that attacked them.

That doesn't make them correct in their conspiracy theories, however.

quote: So Israel wasn't our number one ass to kiss from it's inception.

Sigh. Make up your mind. Either Israel had the US by the balls or it didn't. Personally, I think shooting up a ship is a pretty bad way to prevent the Americans from knowing whatever they wanted to hide (Uncle Shlomo's secret recipe for Patato Latkes?), but that's just me.

quote: I don't think we sold much to Nasser, et al.

Actually, We (well Eisenhower and Kennedy) tried to butter up to Nasser (Eisenhower especially, to try and have it join the Bagdad pact), but that was before Johnson...

quote: Jordan was another story - we liked Kings, Shahs, etc., who weren't looking to cozy up with the commies.

But not democracies that didn't - but that's hardly new. There are plenty of times we've buttered up to bad guys because it suited us.

quote: Sorry you didn't get monopoly status, but if the promised land would have had oil under it, we might have been more accomodating earlier on.

You'd think the big guy could have put some more black gold and some less milk and honey, huh?

	10-07-2003 12:43									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Saras 2. Iraq is hardly a friendly nation.

It was when it was sunk that ship...

quote: 3. We're talking ships here. Ships don't zip past you at 700 kts.

You generally don't shoot at a plane - military or non - of a nation you're not at war with that's in it's own territorial airspace.

quote: 4. You can't blame electonic malfunction. Those were real Israeli pilots in those planes, using human judgement.

Yes, and capable of making human mistakes...

	10-07-2003 12:43									#127
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quote: Originally posted by panag ....every time the pilot of a combat airplane pushes the fire on his board weapons a camera rolls , ........ have a nice day

I thought it was, "Every time the pilot of a combat airplane pushes the fire button a kitten dies".

	10-07-2003 12:45									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I thought it was, "Every time the pilot of a combat airplane pushes the fire button a kitten dies".

I thought it was, "Every time the pilot of a combat airplane pushes the fire button, baby jesus cries."

	10-07-2003 13:21									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Numerous cases during WW2. Iraq sunk one of our ships in the mid 80s. The US shot down an Iranian civilian airplane with hundreds aboard. A russian civilian plane was shot down a year(?) or so ago, above the Ukrane. Need more examples?

The ship that Iraq attacked was a Frigate, the USS Stark. It did not sink, though it was very badly damaged.

	10-07-2003 13:23									#130
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hi ,

here are some recordings and transcripts , ......

>>>>> http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/liberty.html


have a nice day




U.S.S. Liberty

Index


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 02 July 2003, the National Security Agency (NSA) released additional information relative to the 08 June 1967 attack on the U.S.S. Liberty. This release includes three audio recordings, transcripts (in English), three follow-up reports, and a U.S. Cryptologic History Report entitled "Attack on a Sigint Collector, the U.S.S. Liberty." The recordings are in Hebrew and contain time counts in English that were added by the intercept operator. The follow-up reports are summaries of the three transcripts with non-substantive chatter omitted and a compiled report that summarizes the activity and contains the text of the transcripts. The U.S. Cryptologic History Report is a less redacted version of the same document originally released in 1999.

How the information was obtained:

Within an hour of learning that the Liberty had been torpedoed the Director, NSA, LTG Marshall S. Carter, USA, sent a message to all intercept sites requesting a special search of all communications that might reflect the attack or reaction. No communications were available. However, one of the airborne platforms, a U.S. Navy EC-121, had collected voice conversations between two Israeli helicopter pilots and the control tower at Hazor Airfield following the attack on the Liberty.


Audio Recording Labeled 104, dated 8 June 1967, 1229Z-1244Z
Transcript (in English) PDF Format - 8,076KB


Audio Recording Labeled 105, dated 8 June 1967, 1247Z-1319Z
Transcript (in English) PDF Format - 2,866KB


Audio Recording Labeled 130, dated 8 June 1967, 1307Z-1311Z
Transcript (in English) PDF Format - 821KB


Follow-up Report No. 1, dated 9 June 1967, 0831Z (PDF Format - 1,309KB)


Follow-up Report No. 2, dated 9 June 1967, 1422Z (PDF Format - 552KB)


Aftermath of Israeli Attack on U.S.S. Liberty, 22 June 1967, 1454Z (PDF Format - 5,509KB)


U.S.Cryptologic History Report, "Attack on a Sigint Collector, the U.S.S. Liberty", dated 1981 (originally released in 1999) (PDF Format - 15,439KB

	10-07-2003 14:45									#131
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What risk? The Israelis have known for decades that the US government firmly has it's nose up your government's asses. Attack, disable, deny, then let the long-established PR machine go to work.

You're kidding, right? this is 67', remember. And if you think that at that point Israel and the US were buddy-buddy for ages, you're, in one word, wrong. Just 11 years prior to that, the US had detailed plans of the invasion of Israel. the close relatationship started only a couple of years before 67', and in a weird coinsidence, around the time we had a nuke.