10-07-2003 17:29									#31
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Dejon, have you thought of the protection that the jungle is giving us? Because of the jungle, the Ansars can't move fast. If we have catapults and MI, we can shoot them while they are marching through the jungle. It would also be good that we try to demolish the road that is likely to be build under Marlowa, so they move even slower. Jungle turns cavalry into infantry, infantry that can hardly defend themselves. Keep that in mind. We can use the same strategy as GS used against Vox.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	10-07-2003 17:45									#32
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Combined arms is the answer. Not too many of any one type will be the answer.

Doing all Pikes would be a mistake.

Should we chance our galley coming across the sea to get our 2 Horsemen sooner? I think it is well over ten tunrs the long way.

	10-07-2003 19:28									#33
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I never said we'd only ever build Pikes.

For the Nth time, we are short Pikemen right now, and we have to make up the difference quickly. Which is why I'm recommending that at least the first wave of units we build/rush is mostly Pikes.

Last edited by dejon on 10-07-2003 at 19:34

	10-07-2003 20:23									#34
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I'm not sure about vigo building more pikemen as we dont have a barrax there. i'd rather have walls in case they try a rush along our western coast (ignoring or destrying santiago). After all we produce virtually ALL of the nations iron. we need to protect our iron!

I suggest a large defencive/offensive force near or in santiago and a skeleton defence in vigo (1 pike in city, 1 on iron) UNTIL the attack comes. then we must be ready to supply with lots more pikes if they break through.

	10-07-2003 20:24									#35
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Uh, yes you did.

quote: Why all the Pikes? Because we are not planning an offensive, we are planning defense. I know, I know - "Offense is the best defense". The problem is, it is too late for that. We haven't got Chivalry, nor enough horses to upgrade if we did have it. The first and possibly second build waves must protect Spain. Only after we have blunted the assaults of our enemies can we then turn the battle to their lands, with offensive units. Medieval Infantry are fine counter assaults in our own lands, but they're also ripe pickings for Ansars/Riders. We have just enough Med. Inf at the moment, and a lack of defenders to compliment them. I believe we should over build defenders first, and then catch up with the offensive units afterwards, hopefully with Knights instead of Med. Inf.

Granted you did say you'd build more offensive units afterwards; but "after" what exactly? The war? We need more MI and Cats now in addition to more Pikes. We can't wait for ND to atack before we build more MI's


Here's two scenarios, one with attacks not accross a river and one with:

A 4 (MI)attack against a 2.5 (Ansar w/jungle bonus)=attacker wins 73.9%

A 4 (Ansar)attack against a 5.5(Pike w/walls and fortify bonus)= defender wins 67.3%

Or, with river bonuses:

A 4 (MI)attack against a 3 (Ansar w/jungle bonus)=attacker wins 65.4%

A 4 (Ansar)attack against a 6.3(Pike w/walls and fortify bonus)= defender wins 73.2%


So, it is better to attack with MI's than to defend with Pikes if we can get them to come at us not accross a river. Since that is what they are most likely to try and do, we shouuld build MI's for that instance since the numbers indicate they do better.

Just a note, the numbers above are all in our favor. We win in over 2/3's of the individual battles. If we had a few Cats, the numbers for our side would increase. For instance in the attacker was hit by a Cat on his way in:

A 4 (3 HP Ansar)attack against a 6.3 (4 HP Pike w/walls and fortify bonus)= defender wins 87.3% (instead of the 73.2%)



This is what I think we are capable of having in ten turns from now, including rush buying units and improvements:

31 Pikes
22 MI
6 Cats

This is what we will have avaiable on the next turn, this includes some upgrades that are not done yet:

18 Pikes
12 MI
0 Cats

So what would be wrong with that mix in your opinion?

	10-07-2003 20:50									#36
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OK, orders posted for 90BC, please provide feedback.

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Granted you did say you'd build more offensive units afterwards; but "after" what exactly? The war? We need more MI and Cats now in addition to more Pikes. We can't wait for ND to atack before we build more MI's

I always overstate my arguments in order to ensure I get the minimum I want.

We are building some Med. Inf. already, and I assume that Zaragoza will build another, since its shields are so suited to it right now. However, I sincerely believe that it would be best for the rest to build at least one pikeman (many of which can be rushed) before moving onto a more balanced mix, including cats.

I appreciate your calculations - they make me happy about the northwest front, despite our failure to build fortifications in the obvious spots.

Keep in mind that ND must know the odds are against them on that front, and so they are likely to swing over to the northeast front, where the initial odds are better.

Success against Zaragoza only grants access to Leon and Pamplona. Whereas success against Toledo will open up Pamplona and New Madrid.

	10-07-2003 21:30									#37
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You are assuming that they will attack the front line cities. I would not. With the three movement of the chinese, they can very easily bypass our front line cities and start pillaging roads in the rear areas. That is our week point and one that I would exploit like mad. So what if you send in 10 units and they all get slaughtered after 3 turns. the dammage they do in those three turns (assuming it is only attacks of opportunity and nothing else) with 3 movement units will kill us.

We need mobility in our defence, not static forts (actually, both are needed, but we already have the forts for the most part). We need to be able to hit them quicly and KILL them (they have the retreat option, remember).

Secondly, do we have longbowmen yet? if so, they upgrade just like MI, are cheaper, and when placed in a combined arms group are very effective. Look at it.

Horses are cheap, and can win most of the time against a weekend knight like unit. If they do get our roads, we will want a couple of them in our reserves to block their assults.

How recent is our map of theirs? How recent is their map of ours? Heck, someone send me a current save (or of the current model) and I can look for myself. Thanks.

	10-07-2003 21:38									#38
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing You are assuming that they will attack the front line cities. I would not. With the three movement of the chinese, they can very easily bypass our front line cities and start pillaging roads in the rear areas. That is our week point and one that I would exploit like mad. So what if you send in 10 units and they all get slaughtered after 3 turns. the dammage they do in those three turns (assuming it is only attacks of opportunity and nothing else) with 3 movement units will kill us. We need mobility in our defence, not static forts (actually, both are needed, but we already have the forts for the most part). We need to be able to hit them quicly and KILL them (they have the retreat option, remember). Secondly, do we have longbowmen yet? if so, they upgrade just like MI, are cheaper, and when placed in a combined arms group are very effective. Look at it. Horses are cheap, and can win most of the time against a weekend knight like unit. If they do get our roads, we will want a couple of them in our reserves to block their assults. How recent is our map of theirs? How recent is their map of ours? Heck, someone send me a current save (or of the current model) and I can look for myself. Thanks.

We face the pillaging and mobility problem regardless of whether we build Infantry or Med. Inf., and those units are our only real options currently (+ strategic cats).

RE: Longbowmen - we have neither Engineering or Invention.

I disagree on Horses - they'll just get slaughtered.

The more I think about it, we have been manuevered into a very bad spot - no Engineering, no Chivalry, last to get Fuedalism, no allies, and at least two civs with 3 movement UUs about to come bearing down on us.

	11-07-2003 00:40									#39
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We MUST try to cojangle Lego out of all we can--techs, money, whutever. We need to let them know it's in their best interest to keep all the Bobian nations evenly matched and weak.

We must build more Pike and Med Inf. Defense is the first priority, but the best offense is a good defense as they always say. So, even or slightly in favor of one, but we can't go out and build ALL pike or ALL med. (We already discussed that...good strategy on the getting the minimum, Dejon. )

Catapults are also a must. We can use them to damage incoming Ansars (and pillage their road to us), and then the Med Inf can finish them off.

Lastly, we can threaten to all join whutever team defeats us, so they'll be forced to deal with all our roleplay spam.

	11-07-2003 03:01									#40
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We need Medieval Infantry! Without them, we can't defend ourselves in a siege! They will pick us to pieces if we can't strike them outside our cities!

This looks bleak indeed.

Lord Toledo

	11-07-2003 04:29									#41
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90BC report:

The Northwest
-completed a new Med. Inf. in Zaragoza, which is headed to the eastern front
-reassigned a Smashing Maul (western front) to head to eastern front
-rushed a Pike in Santiago
-rushed a Pike in Vigo, which will take over garrison duty for the city
-moved the Vigo garrison unit to the Iron deposit
-started moving the Iron Maul to the western defense stack
-moved Mtn Watch unit towards Zaragoza
-Salamanca Spear going to Pamplona for upgrade, will garrison Pamplona
-Pamplona Guard sent towards eastern front
-Nina brought up west coast to keep an eye out for rival boats

The Northeast
-Watch Rider sent up coastal corridor - hoping to discover what ND and/or GoW are up to and force their hands

-Bashing Mauls are being brought up into position

-Established recon spot atop mtn overlooking jungle

The Interior

-Cordoba Guard moving north as backup. City will need to get connected soon to prevent unhappiness (15 turns?)

-Seville Spear moving towards Pamplona for upgrade. Replacement spear will be completed in 2 turns.

East Coast & South

-Shuffling garrison units to strategic waypoints that allow more flexibility. See shots for details.

-GuObs heading towards Cordoba/Murcia as backup garrison

Current Totals
Pike - 16
Spear headed for upgrade - 2
MedInf - 12
Western Defense (In Santiago/Zaragoza/Stack) - 10
Eastern Defense (In Toledo/Stack) - 6

Next Turn
Pike - 19
Western Defense (In Santiago/Zaragoza/Stack) - 13
Eastern Defense (In Toledo/Stack) - 7

2 turns
Pike - 20
MedInf - 14
Western Defense (In Santiago/Zaragoza/Stack) - 14
Eastern Defense (In Toledo/Stack) - 9

Current Builds
Santiago - Pike in 1
Vigo - Pike in 1
Leon - MedInf in 2
Zaragoza - MedInf in 4
Pamplona - Barracks in 1
Salamanca - Cat in 20 (might rush if needed)
Merida - Cat in 5
Sevilla - Spear in 2
Cordoba - Spear in 19 (suggest change to Worker)
Murcia - Spear in 20 (suggest change to Worker)
Valencia - MedInf in 2
Barcelona - Pike in 2
New Madrid - Pike in 5
Toledo - Pike in 1
Bilbao - Walls in 19 (might rush)

After present builds completed
Pike - 20
MedInf - 15
Cats - 2

Next Builds (recommendations, for discussion)
Santiago - Cat
Vigo - Cat
Leon - Cat
Zaragoza - MedInf
Pamplona - MedInf
Merida - Cat
Sevilla - Spear
Valencia - Cat
Barcelona - Galley
New Madrid - MedInf
Toledo - MedInf

After next builds are completed
Pike - 20
MedInf - 18
Cats - 7

I'd like to build MedInf in Leon, but it will take too long - could we get the second mtn mined?

	11-07-2003 05:10									#42
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I support building another Spear in Sevilla.

Spamish Mitchell, Dukedom of Sevilla

	11-07-2003 08:29									#43
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We need as many Medieval Infantry as we can get. Just as long as the jungles are patrolled, I'm pleased.

Don Iago de History Guy Calamari de Toledo

	11-07-2003 10:00									#44
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but in areas where the building counts, yes, med inf is a requirement IMO.

	11-07-2003 17:45									#45
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What if the enemy trise to take Leon and establish some sort of base there? Is it properly protected? I think we need more walls on our 2nd line of defence.
Pamplona and Toledo will grow to size 6 and that will put them in the clear but Vigo and Leon wont for some time... Its a fairly cheap but valuable bonus should the evil ones try something.

	11-07-2003 20:20									#46
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we can eventually ruch walls if there is need to. thet depends on where the main assault will come.

Aidun

	11-07-2003 21:36									#47
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Leon may be a target, but the most likely avenue of assault is Toledo, the most northerly city of Spain. Once that has fallen (whether they raze it or not), they shall head for Madrid, endangering our capital at Pamplona.

Lord Toledo

	11-07-2003 23:09									#48
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What is up with that scenario?

	12-07-2003 01:41									#49
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It's not exactly the correct way to get information about them, but UnOrthO posted a poll in the main forum accidentally about replacing Master Zen with himself as RP ambassador.

It might be related, by golly...

	12-07-2003 02:00									#50
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I've been busy the past 2 days and have not had time to work on the scenario. I sent Togas a copy of the template of our current situation that other people can mod into scenarios if they want, however.

I'll try to find time this weekend to work on it, but no promises. I've had some unexpected problems come in RL, so I'm busier than I thought right about now trying to fix things.

	12-07-2003 02:47									#51
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Another thought, for protection, is to add workers to a city about to be attacked to get its size up to 7. It has been confimed that walls in a City that has grown to size 7 count for protection in that city in ADDITION to the 'town' becoming a 'City' So in effect you get a double city wall bonus for a result of 100% bonus to defense instaed of just the 50% induced by Walls alone.

	12-07-2003 03:59									#52
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quote: It's not exactly the correct way to get information about them, but UnOrthO posted a poll in the main forum accidentally about replacing Master Zen with himself as RP ambassador. It might be related, by golly...

Indeed, I would say there's a 90% chance it has to do with the impending war. Either:
1. The war is unpopular with many members of GoW, and thus the CoC is to achieve a partial policy change, in which case the war may not end up happening.
2. The current ambassador is seen as too weak by some members of GoW, so the ultra-hawks want to replace him because negotiations with us to keep us from geetting too wrried will be very important.
3. GoW wants to be able to justify backstabbing us or something else like that by saying that a new ambassador brought a new policy.
4. GoW is doing this on purpose to make us think that the new ambassador will bring a more benign policy so we become less worried.
5. It actually has nothing to do with the coming war and its timing is just a coincidence.
6. SOmething else I haven't thought of.

In any case, I wouldn't expect GoW to change their policy, because even if that is UnOrthOdOx's goal, ambassadors aren't usually policymakers but simply the enforcers of policy.

	12-07-2003 05:02									#53
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I'd agree, Senor de la Civ. This must be related.

	12-07-2003 05:50									#54
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I was also convinced it was a set up. But a set up for what and for whom?

We had or theories, but Unorthodox wanted to chat so we (Arnelos, BigFree, myself) joined him in chat in the GoW_CoFA (their foreign affairs room) chat.

Unorthodox began by stating that ND cut the iron and demanded Feudalism in exchange for iron. He also stated that ND demanded a 10 turn no-trade to us. Whether or not this is true is debateable, but it is a reasonable explaination.

Unorthodox explained that since GS wouldn't do a NAP and that with things going poorly with ND recently, he believed there was an alliance against GoW brewing, and even thought that we might be in on it. We debunked that rumor with talk of it's ridiculousness and pointing out that we sent them an extended MPP treaty.

Unorthodox was looking for a way to get us back together. We proposed an alliance and he was very pleased with the idea.

He proposed that we attack THIS TURN. And if not, wanted to know how soon we could attack. We informed him we'd let him know tonight.

He toyed with the notion of a ploy or a fake backstab but we weren't interested. He seemed mostly eager to begin, and seemed to believe that the longer we waited the more powerful ND would become.

We made token arrangements for Iron to GoW and Chiv to us in addition to the alliance, but the primary concern of Unorthodox was how soon we could join them in an attack.

Now, it is entirely likely that ND and GoW are on bad terms. Both have told us this. It is also likely that they are both deceiving us, however, I believe this to be less likely as it would require a very advanced level of deception and VERY careful psychological RP on their part.

It is very likely that MZ wanted us to figure out that there was a 10 turn no-trade on Chiv for us, but felt that he could not say so. This would explain his actions.

In any regard, we are to continue our military build up, as planned, but we need to move into position for an assault.

Furthermore, due to the potential threat of a GS surprise attack, we MUST leave units near Madrid/Toledo/Barcelona to counter attack any GS invasion.

--Togas

	12-07-2003 06:25									#55
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...and the plot thickens.

I suggest we continue with our defensive planning; it is far easier to move from a defense to an offense (in the event ND goes hog wild on GoW or something) than from offense to defense.

Also, we can't be sure they aren't just tricking us...stranger things have happened.

	12-07-2003 07:16									#56
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I don't believe UnOrthOdOx for a second. I think this a clever attempt to draw our units into the field, where they will be sacked by a ND/GoW alliance.

We should continue our build up, and keep behind our lines.

	12-07-2003 07:23									#57
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NEWSFLASH!!!

In the #apolyton channel of the chat server:

[09:01:25] nbarclay> Hi. Is now when the GS/GoW chat was supposed to be? Or do I have my times messed up?

	12-07-2003 08:09									#58
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Ye gads! You're right, Mitchell! Lordy! This is interesting news indeed, and builds the suspicions Dejon and the most of us have been harboring...

	12-07-2003 08:18									#59
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(1) GoW seriously fears GS, and is sounding the alarm. Likelyhood: None. Nada. Zip.
(2) They're plotting and either a) want others to stay out of the way or b) want others to participate.

	12-07-2003 08:55									#60
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Get this in the diplomatic forum, Mitchell, so it'll be noticed by Big Free and Togas. This is quite interesting indeed! I'm glad you saw it!