12-07-2003 11:11									#31
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quote: Do you disagree that it wasn;t poorly written?

The only real problem was the use of "steadfast" instead of "steadfastness." A pretty small mistake for a speech and hardly an issue worth discussing, unless you have an obsessive vendetta against Bush.

	12-07-2003 11:16									#32
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Actually, the problem goes beyond that: as the sentence is written it is possible to think that he is saying the slaves were like any other immigrants, that they went voluntarilly, and becuase of thier characteristics, changed America. You could substitute any word for slaves, like "Italians", "irish", so forth, and the sentence works (beyond the funky steadfast), while in reality, the coming of the slaves was distinct enough that it really should not be possible to substitute any immigrant group for slave and still have the sentence work.

And no, as much as I utterly dispise this admin., and hope every day that it's regin of error ends in 2005, I have no Vendetta againts Bush here.

	12-07-2003 11:22									#33
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quote: as the sentence is written it is possible to think that he is saying the slaves were like any other immigrants, that they went voluntarilly, and becuase of thier characteristics, changed America.

Only if you're so stupid as to not remember how slaves got to America. I think the Bush speechwriters assumed that everyone would already know that slaves came to America involuntarily, thereby eliminating the need for Bush to state this obvious fact. I fail to see how this was a mistake or an example of bad speech-writing.

	12-07-2003 11:24									#34
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First of all, Never assume anything (Why did Bush keep repeating that we would win the war, we would suceed? Would anyone in thier right mind think that Bush did not alrewady think we would, hence we are going in?) of the audience, specially with a sentence that is so sloppy and easy to misinterpret.

This is just poor speechwriting.

	12-07-2003 11:37									#35
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quote: Why did Bush keep repeating that we would win the war, we would suceed? Would anyone in thier right mind think that Bush did not alrewady think we would, hence we are going in?

He repeated the obvious to reinforce the purpose behind his war speeches, ie. "we're going to kick ass."

The purpose of the speech in Senegal was to improve relations, not to open up old wounds, so why would Bush specifically mention the obvious history behind slavery? It was smart speech-writing; talk about the positive contributions of slaves to American society while avoiding mention of the darker side of that exchange. Perfectly suited for the purpose behind Bush's speech.

	12-07-2003 11:59									#36
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Dubbya is an idiot. He probably has illegals working his Crawford plantation.

	12-07-2003 12:12									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten He repeated the obvious to reinforce the purpose behind his war speeches, ie. "we're going to kick ass." The purpose of the speech in Senegal was to improve relations, not to open up old wounds, so why would Bush specifically mention the obvious history behind slavery? It was smart speech-writing; talk about the positive contributions of slaves to American society while avoiding mention of the darker side of that exchange. Perfectly suited for the purpose behind Bush's speech.

He was speaking to embassy staff. And no, poor sentences do not equal smart speechwritting. You seem to be going out of your way to defend what is a goof, for seemingly no other reaosn than to back the admin on this no matter what. Bush said a goofy sentence, as he is sadly all to likely to do. The fact that is stood out enoguh for Sava to pick it out (given how many little speeches big speecehrs Bush is making on this trip, only highlights that it was a goof.

You gain no points by trying to make Bush all of a sudden seem like a brilliant speaker: few of his own allies think so, and with sentecnes like this as your backing, you are not likely to get very far.

If you don;t think it was a goof, well, good for you, just say it: But again, you aren't going to convince anyone that this is "smart speech-writting".

	12-07-2003 12:24									#38
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quote: Bush said a goofy sentence

I fail to see how the sentence is goofy.

quote: It's very interesting when you think about it, the slaves who left here to go to America, because of their steadfastness and their religion and their belief in freedom, helped change America.

Fix the "steadfast" problem and you have a perfectly good sentence. Don't know what you're on about.

quote: You gain no points by trying to make Bush all of a sudden seem like a brilliant speaker

I'm doing no such thing. Bush is a horrible public speaker. He does have good speech-writers, however, which is apparent if you can work your way through all the verbal gaffes Bush makes.

	12-07-2003 12:29									#39
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quote: A pretty small mistake for a speech and hardly an issue worth discussing, unless you have an obsessive vendetta against Bush.

Pegged.

	12-07-2003 19:02									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The only real problem was the use of "steadfast" instead of "steadfastness." A pretty small mistake for a speech and hardly an issue worth discussing, unless you have an obsessive vendetta against Bush.

Hence my first post as a response to Sava.

	12-07-2003 19:22									#41
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Sava, put the last three words of the sentence in your quote. I hope you don't mind, as you of course wouldn't want to mislead people about what was said, would you?

	12-07-2003 19:34									#42
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This is silly.

Grammatically, Bush's sentence does NOT imply that slaves went to America voluntarily, unless you don't understand the use of commas in English sentences.

Yes, it should be "steadfastness," but that's the only thing wrong with it, grammatically.

However, the sentence is still offensive because he waters down how they came here ("left" is rather innocuous, isn't it? How about "forcibly ripped away from their homes?"), references the conversion of the "savages" to Christianity and implies that America was better off because of slavery. Sounds like the typical racist excuse for why slavery shouldn't be apologized for, since White men ultimately made life better for the savages and saved their souls, while they helped make us a greater power.

That's what to get offended over, not some false idea that he said they came here voluntarily.

	12-07-2003 19:36									#43
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Bush needs to seriously get some better speechwriters.

It's awkward and easy to misinterpret ("left here to go to America"?? -Wtf? I dont remember there being a pilgrimage.). At its worst, it's just plain ineloquent.

I could teach a retarded chimp to write better speeches that.

	12-07-2003 19:38									#44
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quote: But we are so honored to start our trip to this continent here in Senegal. I had the opportunity to go out to Goree Island and talk about what slavery meant to America. It's very interesting when you think about it, the slaves who left here to go to America, because of their steadfast and their religion and their belief in freedom, helped change America. America is what it is today because of what went on in the past. Yet when I looked out over the sea, it reminded me that we've always got to keep history in mind. And one of the things that we've always got to know about America is that we love freedom, that we love people to be free, that freedom is God's gift to each and every individual. That's what we believe in our country.

Let's assume Bush said: '...because of their steadfastness and their faith and their belief in freedom, helped change America.'

Which religion/faith?

Would Bush know that the slaves shipped out of Africa were NO Christians? (my guess: no, Bush doesn't know this)
Or is he suggesting that the black slaves were lucky because in America they became Christians?

Let's assume Bush said while he was in Auschwitz:
'I had the opportunity to go out to this concentration camp and talk about what the Holocaust meant to America. It's very interesting when you think about it, the Jews who were gassed here, because of their steadfastness and their religion and their belief in freedom, helped create the state of Israel and change the Middle East.'


How low can one fall?

	12-07-2003 19:40									#45
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You people are wierd.

	12-07-2003 19:42									#46
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quote: It's very interesting when you think about it, the Jews who were gassed here, because of their steadfastness and their religion and their belief in freedom, helped create the state of Israel and change the Middle East.'

Not the same group. Jews who survived did it, not the ones who were gassed.

	12-07-2003 19:43									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sava oh bullsh1t... I posted the entire f*cking article. What's next Imran? The left invented slavery, too? I guess there's no cure for "stupid"....

*wipes tears from eyes* pwned

	12-07-2003 19:48									#48
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Not the same group. Jews who survived did it, not the ones who were gassed.

About 75% of the slaves who 'left' Africa, died during their journey to America.

When it interests you I can give you some 'merry' details.

	12-07-2003 20:01									#49
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And?

	12-07-2003 20:22									#50
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I find it hilarious that some people can't at least point and laugh at the stupidy of Bush and his speeches. If the counter-trolls that I just baited can't stop trying to take everything serious, then you deserved to be mocked.

Of course I wrote the thread title out of context... THAT'S THE POINT!

	12-07-2003 20:56									#51
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Boris has his anger in the right place, & I totally agree with him.

	12-07-2003 21:25									#52
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quote: implies that America was better off because of slavery

of course america was better off because of slavery... cotton money was everywhere... that don't justify it though

	12-07-2003 21:26									#53
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Speer = smart

	12-07-2003 21:45									#54
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who is in your picture, sava?

	12-07-2003 21:47									#55
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quote: who is in your picture, sava?

George Tenet... the Bush admin's scapegoat for Nigergate...

	12-07-2003 21:47									#56
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i dont know if anybody here mentioned it but...

quote: It's very interesting when you think about it, the slaves who left here to go to America, because of their steadfast and their religion and their belief in freedom

means something far different without the last words... that makes it seem like they came to america because of their religion, freedom etc...

while the real quote that sava edited out the ending of

quote: It's very interesting when you think about it, the slaves who left here to go to America, because of their steadfast and their religion and their belief in freedom, helped change America.

means that the helped change america because of their religion and belief in freedom and what not

	12-07-2003 21:49									#57
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Nigergate? you still whining about that mistake in the state of the union address?

	12-07-2003 22:00									#58
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quote: you still whining about that mistake in the state of the union address?

considering over 200 American soldiers are dead, billions of dollars are wasted... yeah... I'm still whining. Sh1t... I whine if I lose five bucks... this war is costing all of us much more than that.

	13-07-2003 01:18									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer of course america was better off because of slavery... cotton money was everywhere... that don't justify it though

I disagree. Slavery was one of the greatest threats to our country since its inception. Look at the divisions over slavery and the turmoil it caused, leading up the Civil War and Segregation. Blacks today are still suffering under the lingering spectre of slavery, in terms of their socio-economic status, continued racism and self-inflicted mental wounds.

Of course, we must also consider how different Africa might be had Europeans not been engaged in exporting tens of millions of its peoples across the world over three centuries.

	13-07-2003 01:20									#60
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but Boris, slave trade, imperialism, genocide, and human right's atrocities made America great!