13-07-2003 20:38									#61
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NYE: I still can't believe they had the balls to claim that we unfairly subsidise farmers up here, given that they give theirs 2-3 times as much as we give ours.

	13-07-2003 20:44									#62
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Total EU exports to the US are what now, 2-3 % of GDP. Not enough to collapse us.

The EU economy will not survive a crash in the world economy. That is ridiculous. It would have to be entirely shut off from the whole world, not just the US.

	13-07-2003 20:45									#63
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, btw. The conclusion up here is that the one, lone, mad cow was imported from the US (most likely) or the UK (less likely). The border remains closed to beef, and yet more people are getting pissed off.

Considering the number of countries that banned Canadian beef after that cow was discovered, why would they be pissed off at us?

	13-07-2003 21:05									#64
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney yeah i was gonna say about the corn laws, i think it was later than 1832, it was after the irish famine IIRC.

Yeah, 1846 actually. I looked it up.

	13-07-2003 21:19									#65
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You are roughly as protectionist as the EU. Stop believing your own propaganda.

I don't think this is true, but how rough is rough? For instance, if the EU is twice as protectionist as the US, are they still "roughly" as protectionist?

As evidence that we're less protectionist, I would point to the US routinely allowing a very high trade deficit both in policy and consumer appetite.

	13-07-2003 21:20									#66
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It was done in steps: There was some hugely important trade liberalization step taken by Britian in 1832 as well, though if ti was not repealling the corn laws, I can;t think which one it was.

	13-07-2003 21:36									#67
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quote: The auto industry is an excellent example. Most cars sold here are now foreign.

This is a myth, IIRC. AFAIK, we still outsell foreign cars by a wide margin.

quote: Is that good? The "debacle" you speak of was caused by an artificial "oil crisis" and the resultant rush to import cars which were perceived to be more efficient. It was not accompanied by an opening of non-US markets, and our auto industry is now dying. Chrysler is gone, Ford is going and GM is on life support. And you think this is an example of the success of free trade for US?

It's a free market. If the Japanese are selling a car for x that I think is more efficient than the Americans selling a more expensive car for y, then I'll take the Japanese car, unless I'm a business moron. The correct way to save an industry is to make the industry good, not to keep subsidizing it into hell.

Then again, one of the best things the government could do right now for the auto industry is subsidizing...give it money for the specific purpose of getting off its lazy ass and building a ****ing hydrogen car. And then, poof, no more middle east meddling...

(And the instances of examples in this thread are manufacturing examples; i.e. steel closing down and cars closing down. America is moving to a service economy.)

	13-07-2003 21:41									#68
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quote: LoneWolf: $41 billion doesn't leave the US every month--there are no fewer dollars in the American economy because of it. This is because the trade deficit has to be made up by overseas investment in the United States. If the US isn't covering its trade deficit with investment in the US, then value of the dollar declines until the US does cover its trade deficit. Eventually, a falling dollar will make American goods cheaper at home and overseas, which will result in a lower trade deficit.

You sure do know a lot about the Benjamins.

	13-07-2003 22:50									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Considering the number of countries that banned Canadian beef after that cow was discovered, why would they be pissed off at us?

Because you're basically siding with the Japanese on this issue instead of with us. Instead of telling the Japanese in no uncertain terms that North American beef is safe, that country-of-origin labelling is unfeasible and that both Canada & the USA have top-of-the-line safety standards in place, and therefore the USA will reopen its borders to Canadian beef immediately and if Japan doesn't like it, tough; you're hemming & hawing on those unreasonable Japanese demands and none of us up here can figure out how you benefit by punishing our beef industry for something that could just as easily have happened to you.

Then you toss in the softwood lumber dispute, the wheat tariff, and the perception is that the USA doesn't want to trade fairly with Canada in industries where Canada can actually *gasp* compete! And/or that the USA will bow to demands from other trading partners instead of from your largest trading partner with whom you have a free trade agreement!

	13-07-2003 22:55									#70
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quote: Originally posted by optimus2861 And/or that the USA will bow to demands from other trading partners instead of from your largest trading partner with whom you have a free trade agreement!

Until the issue wrt the safety of Canadian beef is settled, why shouldn't we err on the side of caution where public safety is concerned?

	13-07-2003 23:46									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You are roughly as protectionist as the EU. Stop believing your own propaganda. I don't think this is true, but how rough is rough? For instance, if the EU is twice as protectionist as the US, are they still "roughly" as protectionist? As evidence that we're less protectionist, I would point to the US routinely allowing a very high trade deficit both in policy and consumer appetite.

Look at the WTO cases the US loses. It is not easy to quantify protectionism, but if you try it like oxfam, you don't find many substantial differences. What would those differences be?

http://www.maketradefair.com/assets...4%20English.pdf

As for the trade deficit, it is a function of your ultralose monetary policy. On the other hand, dollar recycling keeps your financial system alive. It has little to nothing to do with trade policies.

	13-07-2003 23:58									#72
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Y'know, I'm curious as to why some Canadian posters seem to think that joining the EU would solve their problems?

Gatekeeper

	14-07-2003 00:03									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Until the issue wrt the safety of Canadian beef is settled, why shouldn't we err on the side of caution where public safety is concerned?

We've poked and prodded. We've looked over hill and dale. We've tested and measured and counted. We've slaughtered herds that had connection with the mad cow. We've figured out where the cow came from (most likely). We have relayed information and cooperated with American investigators. The border remains closed.

The U.S. Secretary of Agriculture, Ann Veneman, said Canadian beef is safe but has yet to give a timeline for when the border will reopen for trade.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...7932284305_45//

	14-07-2003 00:13									#74
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NYE, since when have you known government entities to move like quicksilver?

	14-07-2003 00:28									#75
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Hmmm. The border got closed pretty fast. Actually, this issue should not have been this big. We found the cow, border closed, fair enough. Now we've demonstrated there are no more to be found, but the border stays closed due to other issues. Foul.

When combined with the joke of a 12% tarrif on two varieties of Canadian wheat, and the lumber tarrifs, patience up here for Washington's nonsense is growing very thin. btw, these issues are effecting 1 large region (the West). That same region is the same one where most of the energy that the US badly needs is located. It is only a matter of time before support will grow for the federal government to do something to get your attention in a way that will stop the silliness. We don't have very many weapons for a trade war, and we really don't want to have one. However, people are getting fed up to the point where they don't see many choices.

	14-07-2003 00:34									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Y'know, I'm curious as to why some Canadian posters seem to think that joining the EU would solve their problems?

It's just *****ing and moaning combined with an apparent ignorance of how France treated the UK after thier mad cow scare.

	14-07-2003 00:36									#77
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"how France treated the UK after thier mad cow scare."

Ooooh, what did the evil French do, hmmm?

	14-07-2003 00:38									#78
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Ooooh, what did the evil French do, hmmm?

Ban UK beef. The samething the Canadians are whining about.

	14-07-2003 00:39									#79
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yes, they banned it and kept the ban in place despite a european court ruling, ****ing french.

	14-07-2003 00:42									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Ban UK beef. The samething the Canadians are whining about.

I guess you'll just be whining when the hydro lines stop sending power and the natural gas pipelines are turned off. Maybe for just a day or two to start.

	14-07-2003 00:50									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Ban UK beef. The samething the Canadians are whining about.

Nope, the EU banned UK beef, and it was perfectly justified. It is no way comparable to the single incident in Canada.

France maintained its beef ban unlawfully for a while after, one of the few problems we can't handle through direct effect and precedence of EU law. But it will be interesting, as France is liable for that under EU state liability law. The US will never compensate people for illegal trade moves.

Another thing you forget is that the EU, end thereby also the french taxpayer, funded a lot of the costs of the BSE desaster.

And Cockney, if you don't like it, join NAFTA and get lost.

	14-07-2003 00:53									#82
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler And Cockney, if you don't like it, join NAFTA and get lost.

That's quite an American atitude you have Roland!

	14-07-2003 00:54									#83
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so if i don't like the french acting ILLEGALLY i can f-off, you're clearly a genius...

	14-07-2003 01:01									#84
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney so if i don't like the french acting ILLEGALLY i can f-off, you're clearly a genius...

The french used a loophole to extend a national ban. Great ****in' story. They're not the only one. Shall we go through the factortame saga, for example? The UK changed the law in the end, so did France.

	14-07-2003 01:03									#85
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney so if i don't like the french acting ILLEGALLY i can f-off, you're clearly a genius...

I think he has a willful blind spot when it comes to issues such as this.

	14-07-2003 01:06									#86
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I'm just an Ulenspiegel...

	14-07-2003 01:07									#87
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You're an oiled mirror?

	14-07-2003 01:10									#88
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Close. An old mirror....

	14-07-2003 10:43									#89
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Man, this is high debate.
Clearly the Euros are the superior force for good in the world. Oh, and Canada, too .

	14-07-2003 11:19									#90
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No, but if the US wants to talk the talk of being free and open traders, they should walk the walk. Canada is seeing a lot of evidence that the US has forgotten the walk recently and I am not ashamed to point it out.