14-07-2003 20:40									#61
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Nice post LotM.

Its nce to get a break from some elements.

	14-07-2003 20:44									#62
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IMO, there are militants and proponents of violence on all sides, as well as pacifists. On the right, there are true advocates of Pro-Life. People that disagreed with the war, that believe the DP to be immoral, as well as objecting to abortion. Conversely, there are militant radicals on the left that believe the use of violence is justified in promoting their cause.

I don't associate peace with the left any more than war on the right. Some people just have silly stereotypes. It's called ignorance.

	14-07-2003 23:32									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Kissinger is a war criminal and should be put to death. But to Fez, he's a credible source.

Actually commies like you are the criminals.

	14-07-2003 23:45									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i just noticed something that Frozzy posted that has been echoed a hundred times on apolyton... why is pacificism seen as left-wing? where the **** did this idea come from that leftists want peace and rightists are all war-like?

Left wing is normally for the people. The people don't wan't to fight for the interests of the elite. The elite want them to.

	14-07-2003 23:46									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Actually commies like you are the criminals.

The fascist is back.

	14-07-2003 23:49									#66
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I view the divide between pacifism/hawkishness to be more of a divide between libertarians/authoritarians than between the left/right. (libertarian with a little 'L' -- pacifism/hawkishness does not inherently have anything to do with economics, so you can have little-l libertarians on the left or the right.)

	15-07-2003 00:00									#67
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quote: Finland, Lithuania, Roumania, Bulgaria, Portugal, etc.? many of them were straight up elected or if not officially, it was clear that the vast majority wanted fascism or communism.

Finland was never fascistic or communist, and a vast majority never wanted either fascism or communism.

	15-07-2003 10:06									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The fascist is back.

You are a Stalinist. Who next are you gonna have shot for your undying love for Karl Marx and arbitrary view of economics?

	15-07-2003 10:09									#69
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kissinger a war criminal who should be executed? god damn... where do your communists get this stuff?

	15-07-2003 10:27									#70
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No, I don't know much about the Spanish Civil War, and I'm not an arrogant foreigner. The accounts of George Orwell and Ernest Heimingway didn't seem biased at all, and according to them it was pretty much only the rich in support of Franco.

quote: Left wing is normally for the people.

OK. I'm a leftist, but that sounds to me like a VERY biased statement. Just because you're a leftist doesn't mean the rightists (i've never heard anyone say rightist before, but I don't understand why...rightist sounds fine) don't care about the people. This thread has been pretty much a bunch of crazy statements. ie I'm not a fan of Kissinger either but I wouldn't call him a war criminal.

	15-07-2003 10:31									#71
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John:

what about the Spanish military and the Catholic Church? both of which were very much in support of Franco... and thats not even paying attention to the fact that there were more middle class or under people in support of Franco which i'm sure Fez could elaborate on.

	15-07-2003 10:44									#72
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod No, I don't know much about the Spanish Civil War, and I'm not an arrogant foreigner. The accounts of George Orwell and Ernest Heimingway didn't seem biased at all, and according to them it was pretty much only the rich in support of Franco.

They got themselves involved in the wrong place. They had no right. Also the statement " only the rich were supportive of Franco" is nonsense.

quote: OK. I'm a leftist, but that sounds to me like a VERY biased statement. Just because you're a leftist doesn't mean the rightists (i've never heard anyone say rightist before, but I don't understand why...rightist sounds fine) don't care about the people.

That is another issue I have with many who call themselves leftists.

	15-07-2003 10:45									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer John: what about the Spanish military and the Catholic Church? both of which were very much in support of Franco... and thats not even paying attention to the fact that there were more middle class or under people in support of Franco which i'm sure Fez could elaborate on.

The only reason Franco mustered up enough forces was because of his overwhelming support. It was mainly economical... the economy was a mess because of mismanagement and the people wanted a leader who would change things. The notion that the communists had any major support is incorrect. Thus they were soundingly defeated.

	15-07-2003 10:54									#74
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quote: They got themselves involved in the wrong place. They had no right.

Orwell went over to Spain to volunteer to help fascism, what's wrong with that.

It probably had to do with where they were in Spain. When Barcelona was in its period of anarchy almost all the lower middle class people were lower or middle class were anarchists and communists and the rich people dressed up poor so they wouldn't look like a Franco supporter.

quote: ...and the Catholic Church? both of which were very much in support of Franco

Tons of catholic churches were burned down by lower and middle class people. They were fed up with the church having so much power.

I'm going to stop talking about the Spanish Civil War because it is something I never have wanted to study. Instead of being cut and dry like the American Civil War it seems a big mess of political parties and different sides. BTW I could've sworn you said you were from Argentina.

	15-07-2003 11:03									#75
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Orwell went over to Spain to volunteer to help fascism, what's wrong with that.

I don't care what group he supported. This war should of remained national.

quote: It probably had to do with where they were in Spain. When Barcelona was in its period of anarchy almost all the lower middle class people were lower or middle class were anarchists and communists and the rich people dressed up poor so they wouldn't look like a Franco supporter.

Most of the country was in support of Franco, hence the greater amount of forces Franco managed to amass. All the communists were killed and done away with in the proper manner so they wouldn't screw up another country.

quote: Tons of catholic churches were burned down by lower and middle class people. They were fed up with the church having so much power.

The church didn't really have much power after the Civil War either... my family knows several priests and bishops who were routinely arrested by Franco's Secret Police. Well that is something my grandmother told me.

quote: BTW I could've sworn you said you were from Argentina.

Stop acting stupid.

	15-07-2003 15:24									#76
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I'm not going to start... its too blatent!

Welcome back Fez!

Peace!